Would you arrange a survey without being there (re: borders are closed)?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As a retired SAMS Accredited Surveyor ..... You should not hire a surveyor who does not welcome your presence.

I'm not a retired surveyor, but I agree entirely with this post. Any surveyor worth his salt will be glad, or at least willing to have you follow him around. If he demurs, fire him forthwith. He is working for you and you should set the parameters of the job. Discussing this before a contract is signed might be a good plan!

Jim

[ExchangeGeek]

So I did see your update about choosing to wait but I wanted to post my experience anyway perhaps for others.

We bought a sailing catamaran from Sunsail Croatia (sight unseen) 4 months ago. The boat is in the USA now and we're living on board and were very happy with the results.

We're very new to large boats and I didn't feel I had the expertise to find flaws so my $2000+ travel costs would not have been a good investment. Instead, I hired a reputable general surveyor plus a rigging surveyor and the two of them exposed all major problems.

We also hired a delivery crew (Pro Yacht Deliveries) to provision and move the boat. Those guys found and fixed quite a few additional issues. The end result was the delivery of a boat I'd never seen in person but in the very best shape.

My experience may be better than others since I did have a moorings broker and Sunsail Croatia was pretty helpful.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by ExchangeGeek

We're very new to large boats and I didn't feel I had the expertise to find flaws so my $2000+ travel costs would not have been a good investment. Instead, I hired a reputable general surveyor plus a rigging surveyor and the two of them exposed all major problems.

I enjoy hearing stories like this that had a good ending. I'm generally optimistic about human nature and do not subscribe to the school of thought that brokers are bad and surveyors recommended by brokers are horribly skewed. But they do bring a certain lens to their point of view that serves two masters - their business interests and their fiduciary responsible to me, the guy who has asked for their very best thinking. I just don't like putting people in that position.

ExchangeGeek brings up an interesting point: given his novice knowledge base, would the time and expense to attend the survey have been productive? Personally, I have never met a surveyor who didn't take their job very seriously, and who didn't enjoy having the buyer tag along and ask questions. I believe I got their best work not because I was shoulder-surfing their inspection, but because by being there, I humanized their work - they weren't just surveying a boat, they were helping a real person avoid possible pitfalls. So yes, I think the time/expense would have been productive.

It's hard for me to think of surveyors without a wistful fond memory of Peter Minkvitz, a NAMS surveyor in Oakland CA. I met him when he was Yard Manager at Svenden's Marine almost 30-years ago, and then left to become a surveyor (a trajectory not unlike our respected Steve D'Antonio). His small stature with bespeckled face and pith helmet coupled with a calm, confident demeanor were always a welcomed site. He passed 10-years ago or so, and I sorely miss his counsel. If I had that type of relationship with a surveyor, I'd consider a sight-unseen purchase because I'd know the connection was established and he (or she) had my best interests at heart. But tough to imagine a scenario where ExchangeGeek's experience is the rule versus a pleasant exception.

Enjoy your boat! Sounds like you're off to a great start. And congratulations.

Peter

[Suijin]

Personally I would never buy a boat where I was not present at the survey. First, you get to witness how good the surveyor is. I have received multiple references that a surveyor is "top notch" only to discover that they are not. You won't learn that unless you are present. Secondly, if you are there and an issue is discovered you can discuss it with eyes on it. The report will only be a summery of the finding with a terse recommendation at best.

[AKA-None]

Yeah if only there was a way to see this stuff remotely

[Snore]

To the OP- My first response is No!!!

After thing some more about it—- hell no!

If you have a relationship with a third party who is at arm’s length from the transaction- you could hire that person as an “owner’s representative”. But you would be placing a HUGE amount of faith in that person.

[Stmurray62]

Being present during survey & accompanying sea trial are your chance to proceed with the sale or walk away. So, yes you should be present. However, this virus thing is complicating things. From a health perspective, I’d stay home and postpone the survey; if seller balks, then walk away, there’s lots of boats for sale. Bottom line don’t jeapordise health for a “toy” and don’t jeapordize peace of mind by being absent from survey...

[Scrosby]

I just did this with a boat in Europe due to the virus. Found an excellently rated surveyor who sent over 80 photos and followed the report with a lengthy phone call and he is reachable with any questions at any time. Well worth it as the boat failed survey. You can never just go by what it says on the listing.
However, I am a very experienced boat buyer and owner. If you wish to protect this boat for your purchase, just do the survey. Good luck.

[jalmberg]

I would wait until this is over. Remember: there is always another boat to fall in love with, and they will probably be cheaper in 6 months.

[rvich]

I would only hire a surveyor to perform a survey in my absence if:

1.) I'd spent time on board the yacht and had already decided for myself that it passed all of my screening.

2.) I knew the surveyor. In theory this second item shouldn't matter, but not all surveyors are created equal. Unless you get to follow your surveyor around you really have no idea how good of a job they do. While it may not be practical to hire a surveyor you know personally at least find one that comes with good recommendations from somewhere like this forum!

Personally, I would rather miss out on a deal than buy a boat when I couldn't get on board. The pain and expense of being stuck with a dog is just too great! My guess is that in the near future there may be lots of yachts on the market.

[macanudo]

Dont do it! We watched our first sailboat (a 45' catamaran) being built & knew where every nut & bolt etc was that held us in good stead for 5 yrs & 28k Nm of cruising on her. Since then I have always been present at any surveys.
I suspect that we are all on the edge of something we dont fully understand but I reckon there will be plenty of future opportunities further down the line & perhaps even better ones! Dont take the risk....
Once you take the plunge stay at sea....we never got sick at sea!

[Happ]

Originally Posted by FreeRide

First of all let me say "Hello" to everyone on Cruisers Forum. This is my first post. Great information shared here and friendly, helpful replies.

We are buying a 1992 Lagoon TPI that appears to be very well maintained. It has new engines (300 hr), sail drives, folding props, standing rigging, tramps, etc. I've owned smaller fishing boats my whole life but this is our first "yacht" (I use the term loosely).

Due to the border closure (coronavirus), I doesn't look like I will be able to travel to Florida any time soon (we live in Canada). So I have two choices: cancel the survey until I can get down there but possibly risk voiding the offer to purchase, or have the survey conducted in my absence.

As first time buyers, I believe that being there for the survey represents a huge learning opportunity for me. The surveyor has vastly more experience than I do. I will be seriously disappointed if I cannot be there for the survey.

I'm interested in hearing what would you do? In particular, the pros/cons of having a survey done in my absence.

Thanks and Cheers!

A few years back I had a survey done. I found a questionnaire on line that you can submit to the seller. It needs to be signed and notarized. Watch the seller cringe when they see it. Out of the blue things started being disclosed. Insurance claim, work that needed to be done that wasn’t disclosed etc. that’s why you want to be there to make sure you can ask the surveyor questions. The sellers want their boats sold now. Not likely we will see prices going up anytime soon. So the risk to the seller is the price will go down. The broker wants his commission. They will most likely advocate for the seller with the surveyor. During my survey they were going to repair a bad heat exchanger. It was I think $200. I was there so it took about a minute for the surveyor to object so it was agreed to replace it. The engine checked out fine but I found out this low time motor had substantial repairs done almost to the point of calling it a rebuild. The surveyor saw something and casual mentioned it and the broker glazed over as no big deal. For me it was. The deal was killed right then.

[Bbolino]

Unless you are talking about an amount of money that isnt important to you I probably wouldnt buy a boat when I didnt witness the survey and sea trial her.

I absolutely would not do it with a surveyor I didnt know or who didnt come highly recommended by a good friend NOT the broker. I am going to get a lot of mail on this but there are good surveyors and bad surveyors - I have experience with both.

And the concerns about what happens next are important. You cant take posession because the border is closed. South FLorida's east coast is technically closed to recreational boating - all marinas and ramps are closed. Its posssible that you cant find anyone to haul it for survey.

Someone is going to have to take posesssion for you and store it until you can move it which is an indeterminant date.

I would contact the seller and talk about what arrangements can be made for post closing storage and maintenance and I would ask for a delay in survey and closing until you can attend them, maybe offer to increase the deposit as a show of good faith. if the seller wont entertain that you should exercise the force majure clause and run, dont walk from the contract.

[lo2jones]

a couple of questions: Why new engines? How did you select the surveyor. Florida, especially Miami area, has a reputation for shady dealings with broker/surveyor. That's key in your deal: making sure you have selected a good, honest surveyor.

[Rodney]

I will stick to the original question. If you have a good surveyor whom you trust, then s/he can complete the survey alone. This makes it critical to get at least three or four references for the surveyor unless you have used her/him before.

I just had an insurance survey performed on my boat (Manta 42 MKII), and used a surveyor I know. Given the social distancing requirements, I let him survey the boat alone. He did a very thorough job.

The problem is, even the best will miss things. For example, my surveyor noted the lack of CO detectors, but we have then in every cabin. The surveyor also noted expired flares (our backups that we save for practice), without finding our main flares in our ditch bag. So, unless you are there to double check, even the best surveyors will miss a few things. However, a good surveyor will find any significant seaworthiness issues.

You will need a surveyor who is willing to inspect your standing rigging (unless it has been recently replaced by a reputable rigger--and even then, I would want it inspected), and that is difficult to do alone.

What about a mechanical survey? Even though the engines have low hours, they could still have issues. Were they new or rebuilt? If rebuilt, be very cautious. Rebuilding a diesel take years of experience to do right. And, if the boat has a genset and you car about that, you will want a mechanical on that, too.

Finally, ensure that the surveyor is willing to call/skype you while on the vessel to go over any preliminary concerns. Also, be sure to review the report carefully. Highlight any questions you have and make sure your surveyor will discuss the report with you.

There is no right answer as to whether to buy now or not. Others have made thoughtful suggestions. However, you can get a reliable survey without being there (I have bought two boats sight-unseen based on surveys. That's what they are for.) Just be very selective about the surveyor.

Rodney
Respite
Manta 42