Buying a boat with deferred maintenance?

[JPA Cate]

Hi, Gerry,

To me, you need to investigate the selling prices of similar boats, so you've an idea of a reasonable base line, AND costs of the new rig you anticipate, if possible get estimates in writing. Show them to the seller during the negotiations so that he or she can see [you're interested enough to have done your homework], and you're not trying to take advantage of them. To me, this is a question about negotiation techniques, and at the end of the day, both parties to a transaction should feel they can live with it, that the sale will be good for both of you. Not everyone would agree with me on this, but it is one time, [ actually, two things] boats and houses, that I don't think the challenge is to be the better financier, but to be open to both benefitting from the sale. How much, is always negotiable.

Some people will recommend a low ball offer, and that you bring a lot of cash to flash at the table. I think that disrespects the seller, and it would surely turn me off, big time. Like no way would I sell my boat to someone like that, and I don't care if I have to wait for another buyer, so the concept does have a possible failure mode.

Your choice.

Ann

PS. We bought our boat in 2003. They asked a fair price, and we negotiated some, ...and, we're still friends, twenty years later!

A.

[George_SD]

This is a funny thread by OP - "please give me advice and tell me your experience, but don't tell me things I don't want to hear".

Ok...

[GerryL]

Originally Posted by George_SD

This is a funny thread by OP - "please give me advice and tell me your experience, but don't tell me things I don't want to hear".

Ok...

???
I think I’m missing the humor. But that’s ok.

[Benz]

Rod rigging is not forever. That's why there's re-heading services to stretch out its life. It's in the heads that it normally fails, since the violent process of whacking a head into rod does some work-hardening and micro-cracking that leads to crevice corrosion.
I would far rather pour money into replacing chainplates and shrouds than into comprehensive insurance. If you maintain well, your chances of needing insurance become less.
BTW, whatever the cost, I'd say make sure you have confidence in your rig. There's enough to worry about when sailing hard through thick darkness without sweating the loss of the rig. It's one of the reasons I now use Dyneema for shrouds.

[danstanford]

FWIW, if I was selling an older boat I would set the price based on the age and condition of the boat. This assessment would take into account all these things and therefore I would not expect to discount it further because of these things.

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by GerryL

. If I do buy a boat, it will most likely be 1980+/- vintage.
My frustration is in the scenarios where a boat has 40 year old standing rigging and chainplates, and the owner disagrees that there is any concern; they are not willing to negotiate price based on this.

You concern is not very realistic. It would be a rare instance in which anyone knows how old the rigging is on a 40+ year old boat. Most of the boats that age have had a succession of different owners. The rigging is only one system out of many on a boat that old. Further, there are many components to the rigging. I suggest you read Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual, specifically the section on Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, pp. 48-68 Rig.

If it really bothers you, replace all the standing rigging. If you DIY, if will be under $2K.

As far as unreasonable sellers, feel them out before you waste your time. Before you see the boat, ask if the price is fixed, or will they negotiate. Ask if they will sign a statement revealing whether they know of any significant material defects. On the flip side, as a seller, to avoid tirekickers, I wanted to see photo ID and proof of funds to close - a copy of a written bank or investment account statement, before showing the boat. If they don't have the cash to close on a 40 year old boat, F 'em. They can go waste someone else's time.

I would not travel long distances to look as a boat. Buyers on this forum seem to get hung up on particular makes and models of used sailboats. Five years later, they are still asking stupid questions about potential boats while the rest of us are out sailing.

[bensolomon]

Gerry,

I bought my 1990 sailboat in 2013. I had no idea how old the rig was. Survey showed a few things that needed fixing, the rig was not one of them, but the surveyor didn't go aloft.

For the first year, sailed her in local waters, nothing crazy, and added a fridge and an auto helm to make life better on board. All was well. Prior to going on my first ocean trip with her, I had the mast taken down and inspected, rig and all, and had a tri-color/anchor light combo added. Rig passed inspection as did the mast.

Since I have owned the boat ten years at this point, and I have no idea how old the rig is and I suspect this is the original rig, I have electively replaced the standing rigging this year (with some helpful advice from the forum)

This is an N=1 scenario, I'll admit. However, this is the logic I followed. The rig is unlikely to fall off as you get to know whatever boat in the beginning, but in an older boat, you're most likely going to have to replace the rigging at some point, without a definite knowledge of age for peace of mind.

I did not DIY, as a side note. I'm pretty good with tools and projects, but.....not with rigging.

Hope this helps you.

Ben

[thomm225]

As an example, my boat will be 49 years old in July based on the HIN.

The PO had passed before I bought it. That was in 2011.

It sat on the hard by salt water for 5 years between went he left it at the marina and when I bought it.

He did a 2 years cruise from Massachusetts to Florida and the Bahamas before that.

So that makes the rigging at least 19 years old now.

I'm replacing the chainplates at this time and will then start replacing the rigging starting with the backstay all with the mast up.

I doubt very much that a seller of an older boat is going to replace the rigging for the new owner especially these days with so few used boats available.

The good thing about my boat is that it's overbuilt and has the 3 shrouds (2 lowers and an upper) then forestay and backstay.

Recently I went up the mast on my webbing ladder and added a line to the top of the mast to help support the backstay as it is looking pretty old.

I also inspected the rigging up there and removed an old bullet block that the roller had disintegrated on.

I've been in winds to 35 knots with the main up. This in the Chesapeake Bay not 100 miles offshore in the bay

[bensolomon]

Gerry,

I should also add that in the Chesapeake Bay just like Thomm. That's what I meant by local Waters, and I will readily admit that I spend too much money on my boat, but she is my fortress of solitude and when I get an opportunity for free time, I want to go sailing not be a shipwright. I only put that out there so that you can understand my philosophy versus some of the others on the forum.

Best wishes,
Ben

[wingssail]

We could also discuss "Selling a boat with deferred maintenance".

I am not selling my boat at this time but I think about it constantly, how would this boat present itself? What things would turn off a potential buyer?

I have rod rigging. It is 23 years old. Rod rigging rarely shows any signs of pending failure. Whenever I am in heavy weather I worry about it. But replacement would be expensive. I really cannot afford to do it. (maybe that means I cannot afford to own a boat, I can't face that). I justify the risk by thinking that since I stay close to shore, if the rig falls down I will simply cut it away and motor to my home port. I'll take this risk.

But would I lose out on a sale because of this old rig? Possibly, but I think I could price that in. One thing I know for sure, replacing the rig would not increase the value by the cost of the replacement. So other than the gamble I'm taking, the cost of replacement is not justified.

Hull and deck (and other maintenance items): I do address issues which I consider serious (such as deck repair where needed) but I often let stuff go if I judge it isn't critical (such as a soft spot where it doesn't matter). However this would likely be identified in a survey and could be considered "deferred maintenance".

I think it is unlikely that any 40 year old boat is without "deferred maintenance". If you are a buyer you should expect this. If you are a seller, you should recognize these exist and set the price to accordingly. If you don't think the price is reasonable or reflects these items, walk away. It is rare that a seller will further reduce the price to replace the rig or correct all survey deficiencies, some sellers as simply not realistic (or buyers either).

[TrentePieds]

GerryL said: "Maybe I should have been more clear in saying that my frustration is with the situation when an owner lists a boat at a fairly high price saying nothing is needed, it's ready to go. And then you find out the rig is original, and it has water and rust staining on and below several chainplates, and they won't negotiate for that."

Surely, if you are contemplating a fairly expensive purchase, the purchase of an item that in the very greatest number of circumstances will cost you a great deal of money to own and which will never fetch you as much money when you sell it as you paid for it, let alone put into it over the period of ownership, you would take good care to educate yourself sufficiently about the technicalities of boats and their ownership that you would never buy a pig in a poke?

Implicit in your expressed concern is a belief that a rig fails catastrophically, all components at the same time. It just isn't so!

As you do your "pre-take-off inspection" - which you do in your own boat just as you would do it on an aircraft - you note deficiencies and you remedy them ASAP, one component at a time.

So why are you worried? Offer a seller, or better still his broker, a fair price in a written Offer to Purchase that carries a sufficient number of explicit and precisely worded "subjects" covering the concerns that your pre-purchase inspection has brought to light. Support that offer with a deposit big enuff to testify to your sincerity. State in the offer that the deposit is that: A DEPOSIT and NOT "earnest money".

Best of Luck! :-)

TrentePieds

[Happ]

[QUOTE=davil;3747786]

Originally Posted by GerryL

I

will limit my comment only to the following points

"My frustration is in the scenarios where a boat has 40 year old standing rigging and chainplates, and the owner disagrees that there is any concern; they are not willing to negotiate price based on this. "

Understand your frustration, however the seller is not obliged to negotiate for whatever his/hers motivation.

If the price is right for you as a buyer, that is the fair price (fair price is reached when both buyer and seller agree on that price)

===============================
"Those of you that have purchased a boat like this, did you just suck up the cost and renew the rig yourself? Or were you able to negotiate on this?"

Yes, have purchased older boats and other older items including houses, cars, power tools, if I felt either was a "fair price" or just got to have it, even against any common sense.

My insurance company requires a Survey (by a Licensed Surveyor) PRIOR to insuring it. Period.

If I see something upfront and the Seller doesn’t want to sell at my price then why continue the conversation? The Surveyor is bound to find other issues. So why would I want to pay for a survey? The Seller is just going to say no.

[Pete the Cat]

Originally Posted by Brioche

What sort of insurance are you looking for? You can generally get liability insurance without a survey. If you are looking to insure against casualty, you may want to weigh the cost of the insurance against the cost of the boat, and especially against the value the insurance company is willing to put on the boat. A well-maintained boat of the vintage you seek can be a wonderful thing, and many of us sail such boats, but an insurance company may not put much value on it. You might do better to just get liability coverage, accept the small risk of loss, and put your money into maintenance (including rigging).

Agreed and an important point. Getting insurance for other than liability has become a nightmare in recent years on any boat older than 10 years--and in some geographic locations even newer boats are going to face a challenge as well. The problem is that the insurance companies have lost a lot of boats in the recent weather anomalies and there have been big loss ratios from boaters with more money than experience. Another problem is the proliferation of surveyors of dubious credentials. I have no idea how some of the SAMS and AMS folks get their certification--some appear to have very little actual boat building or repair experience--yet insurance companies have little option but to trust them because there is huge variability in the seaworthiness of older vessels. Insuring boats has become a risky business and they have recent losses to make up. I have two sailboats that are worth $40 or $50K each and am thinking about dropping my hull coverage as I do not live in hurricane or storm areas and just keeping the liability insurance. In my 40 years of cruising I did have one accident that cost $20K to repair, but I have spent more than double that on insurance over those same years. In retrospect I could have self insured this loss. Liability only is cheap. FWIW.

[OS2Dude]

As far as negotiating based on issues, perhaps the seller thinks the current price takes the current condition into account. It never hurts to ask, but don't assume the owner is being unreasonable if they decline.

Guesstimate the cost to repair/replace the items you think require it, add it to the price being asked and then decide if the boat is still worth it to you. Just remember all used (and even some new) boats will have issues.

READY-TO-GO does not mean NEW. To some people it means the boat is afloat and can leave the dock under its own power. It is 'puffery', used in marketing to fluff up the description without out-right lying.

When we were looking for a boat, we saw one that was for sale for more than a new one would have cost. Turns out he had two (Racer & Cruiser) and the wife made him agree to sell one, so it was 'for sale'...

[eric12]

Is Denver the only one with any common sense left? Buying a boat from the 80's will definitely test your threshold for pain. Just make sure you have an additional 20k minimum set aside. Me personally, I would be more concerned with the engine. A boat from the 80's is due for new rigging the day you purchase the boat based on a 15yr life span.
And yes, Denver it's valve is only what you are willing to pay. I've been lucky. I'm a firm believer you make money on the purchase never the sale.
Eric12