Buying a boat with deferred maintenance?

[GerryL]

I have been looking for a sailboat for sailing the Maine/NE coast. I have only looked at 3 in person, but it seems that it is common for a boat to have old or original standing rigging. If I do buy a boat, it will most likely be 1980+/- vintage. I'm looking at +/-35' solid, full keel designs.
What happens when a buyer goes to insure a boat like this? I should say that I am not interested in sailing a boat with old standing rigging; I would want to replace it. I also don't want to start another discussion on if the rig is ok to use or not, that's been discussed, with people on both sides of the fence. Well, maybe a question regarding rod rigging. I've read 15-20 year life, and some people have said it's lifetime. Thoughts? (lol, here we go) But if a surveyor has a recommendation that the chainplates and standing rigging be removed for inspection annually or replaced, can one get insurance before that is done?
My frustration is in the scenarios where a boat has 40 year old standing rigging and chainplates, and the owner disagrees that there is any concern; they are not willing to negotiate price based on this.
Those of you that have purchased a boat like this, did you just suck up the cost and renew the rig yourself? Or were you able to negotiate on this? Or forego the insurance and go sailing? (I'm not inclined to do the latter, I want known good standing rigging/chainplates).
Maybe I just haven't found the right one yet.

[BostonSailer]

My boat's a 1984 Hans Christian. The rigging was replaced by the PO about ten years ago. Get a good survey and if the rigging is suspect, use it as a lever down on the purchase price. On a boat that age, I'd be also concerned about hull and deck integrity, engine life and sail condition.
Chris

[SailingHarmonie]

I completely agree, rod rigging lasts a lifetime… it’s lifetime. then it fails.

Look, everybody who has worked on older boats has seen the consequences of crevice corrosion of stainless steel on rigging parts, chainplates, etc, etc. Here is but one example: https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

You can chose to ignore that accumulated experience in favor of the ravings of an internet crank who is convinced we are all out to rip him off. You can delude yourself into thinking for some magic reason this can not happen to those particular pieces of stainless steel that are keeping the mast from falling and crushing your skull. Just keep whistling past that graveyard.

The correct answer is standing rigging that is used in salt water needs to be replaced ever 15 years to have a safety factor that experience teaches us is reasonable.

How you use that information in negotiations to buy a neglected boat is up to you.

[leecea]

But if a surveyor has a recommendation that the chainplates and standing rigging be removed for inspection annually or replaced, can one get insurance before that is done?

I can only speak for how my insurance handled the survey findings. They required that I submit an action plan for all findings, to be reviewed by them before the policy was issued. They accepted my plan but pointed out that items found by the surveyor were not covered until fixed.

[davil]

[QUOTE=GerryL;3747746]I

will limit my comment only to the following points

"My frustration is in the scenarios where a boat has 40 year old standing rigging and chainplates, and the owner disagrees that there is any concern; they are not willing to negotiate price based on this. "

Understand your frustration, however the seller is not obliged to negotiate for whatever his/hers motivation.

If the price is right for you as a buyer, that is the fair price (fair price is reached when both buyer and seller agree on that price)

===============================
"Those of you that have purchased a boat like this, did you just suck up the cost and renew the rig yourself? Or were you able to negotiate on this?"

Yes, have purchased older boats and other older items including houses, cars, power tools, if I felt either was a "fair price" or just got to have it, even against any common sense.

[Brioche]

What sort of insurance are you looking for? You can generally get liability insurance without a survey. If you are looking to insure against casualty, you may want to weigh the cost of the insurance against the cost of the boat, and especially against the value the insurance company is willing to put on the boat. A well-maintained boat of the vintage you seek can be a wonderful thing, and many of us sail such boats, but an insurance company may not put much value on it. You might do better to just get liability coverage, accept the small risk of loss, and put your money into maintenance (including rigging).

[davil]

Originally Posted by Brioche

What sort of insurance are you looking for? You can generally get liability insurance without a survey. If you are looking to insure against casualty, you may want to weigh the cost of the insurance against the cost of the boat, and especially against the value the insurance company is willing to put on the boat. A well-maintained boat of the vintage you seek can be a wonderful thing, and many of us sail such boats, but an insurance company may not put much value on it. You might do better to just get liability coverage, accept the small risk of loss, and put your money into maintenance (including rigging).

==========================
excellent point, and also is the issue of older boats not getting insurance after a certain age.

[GerryL]

Originally Posted by BostonSailer

My boat's a 1984 Hans Christian. The rigging was replaced by the PO about ten years ago. Get a good survey and if the rigging is suspect, use it as a lever down on the purchase price. On a boat that age, I'd be also concerned about hull and deck integrity, engine life and sail condition.
Chris

It's nice that you got one with fairly a recent rig. I'm mostly concerned with hull and deck for sure. I don't want to get into a fiberglass/core project. I'm fairly competent mechanically, and don't mind engine work. Rig and sails I can buy if the price is right. Thanks!

[GerryL]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

I completely agree, rod rigging lasts a lifetime… it’s lifetime. then it fails.

Look, everybody who has worked on older boats has seen the consequences of crevice corrosion of stainless steel on rigging parts, chainplates, etc, etc. Here is but one example: https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

You can chose to ignore that accumulated experience in favor of the ravings of an internet crank who is convinced we are all out to rip him off. You can delude yourself into thinking for some magic reason this can not happen to those particular pieces of stainless steel that are keeping the mast from falling and crushing your skull. Just keep whistling past that graveyard.

The correct answer is standing rigging that is used in salt water needs to be replaced ever 15 years to have a safety factor that experience teaches us is reasonable.

How you use that information in negotiations to buy a neglected boat is up to you.

Good point on its lifetime! I have no intention of sailing with an old rig; I'm just surprised so many owners do, and say it's no problem. I've seen the photos of chainplates here.

[GerryL]

Originally Posted by leecea

I can only speak for how my insurance handled the survey findings. They required that I submit an action plan for all findings, to be reviewed by them before the policy was issued. They accepted my plan but pointed out that items found by the surveyor were not covered until fixed.

This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. Thanks so much!

[GerryL]

[QUOTE=davil;3747786]

Originally Posted by GerryL

I

will limit my comment only to the following points

"My frustration is in the scenarios where a boat has 40 year old standing rigging and chainplates, and the owner disagrees that there is any concern; they are not willing to negotiate price based on this. "

Understand your frustration, however the seller is not obliged to negotiate for whatever his/hers motivation.

If the price is right for you as a buyer, that is the fair price (fair price is reached when both buyer and seller agree on that price)

===============================
"Those of you that have purchased a boat like this, did you just suck up the cost and renew the rig yourself? Or were you able to negotiate on this?"

Yes, have purchased older boats and other older items including houses, cars, power tools, if I felt either was a "fair price" or just got to have it, even against any common sense.

Yes, I agree with all that. Maybe I should have been more clear in saying that my frustration is with the situation when an owner lists a boat at a fairly high price saying nothing is needed, it's ready to go. And then you find out the rig is original, and it has water and rust staining on and below several chainplates, and they won't negotiate for that. But as you say, someone can list and wait for the price they want; but it may sit for years as have a few I've seen in the listings.

I'm not opposed to considering the self insure route either (except for liability). I'm kind of doing that on a truck I bought for summer use (camper and boat towing) last year. I found a 1994 diesel F250 from NC with NO rust, and low miles. I brought it home, put new tires on it, replaced both fuel tank sending units and pickups, one fuel tank, a speed sensor, all injection lines, glow plugs, dash lights, some dash trim, and installed a Banks Sidewinder turbo kit. So I'm into it for maybe $15k now, but KBB value is only $2-3K. If I get whacked, I lose out. The only way to try to recover more is to have it appraised every year, and hope the appraiser agrees with my value. That isn't worth it to me. I of course have it insured on my policy, but I'll take a hit if it gets whacked. In reality, there is probably less of a chance of incurring a loss with a boat. Hmmm.

[GerryL]

Originally Posted by Brioche

What sort of insurance are you looking for? You can generally get liability insurance without a survey. If you are looking to insure against casualty, you may want to weigh the cost of the insurance against the cost of the boat, and especially against the value the insurance company is willing to put on the boat. A well-maintained boat of the vintage you seek can be a wonderful thing, and many of us sail such boats, but an insurance company may not put much value on it. You might do better to just get liability coverage, accept the small risk of loss, and put your money into maintenance (including rigging).

I'm starting to consider this more and more. I suppose I have to find my comfort level with the price vs possible loss.

[davil]

[QUOTE=GerryL;3747812]

Originally Posted by davil

Yes, I agree with all that. Maybe I should have been more clear in saying that my frustration is with the situation when an owner lists a boat at a fairly high price saying nothing is needed, it's ready to go. And then you find out the rig is original, and it has water and rust staining on and below several chainplates, and they won't negotiate for that. But as you say, someone can list and wait for the price they want; but it may sit for years as have a few I've seen in the listings.

I'm not opposed to considering the self insure route either (except for liability). I'm kind of doing that on a truck I bought for summer use (camper and boat towing) last year. I found a 1994 diesel F250 from NC with NO rust, and low miles. I brought it home, put new tires on it, replaced both fuel tank sending units and pickups, one fuel tank, a speed sensor, all injection lines, glow plugs, dash lights, some dash trim, and installed a Banks Sidewinder turbo kit. So I'm into it for maybe $15k now, but KBB value is only $2-3K. If I get whacked, I lose out. The only way to try to recover more is to have it appraised every year, and hope the appraiser agrees with my value. That isn't worth it to me. I of course have it insured on my policy, but I'll take a hit if it gets whacked. In reality, there is probably less of a chance of incurring a loss with a boat. Hmmm.

======================

talking about frustration

my boiling point is traveling to see a boat advertised with photos that are totally misleading, even when I spend time before the trip to go over and make sure those pics are "real"

Patience and restrain work in the long run.

good luck on your quest, like they say, keep the faith, there is a boat there with your name.

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by GerryL

I'm starting to consider this more and more. I suppose I have to find my comfort level with the price vs possible loss.

I agree with the insurance reply’s and would like to add most marinas ask for liability insurance and around me the Long Island sound you need a 1/2 million to keep a boat with them.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by GerryL

...and the owner disagrees that there is any concern; they are not willing to negotiate price based on this.

Then they are being unrealistic, and you need to be willing to walk away.

The seller always believes that their boat is wonderful, pristine, perfect, and there is nothing that they should be willing to negotiate on. The buyer is the one who needs to see the boat as it really is, and be willing to walk away if the seller is not realistic.

A boat is worth exactly what a willing buyer, and a willing seller, are ready to agree that it is worth. No more, and no less. If it is not worth -- to you -- what the seller is willing to agree to, then there is no sale.

It really is that simple.