Head on collision

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

IMHO this is most often false thinking. Being free from the helm you don't pay as much attention to watch keeping as you would while hand steering, especially in low trafic areas. You get distracted as you are not actively occupied in a physical task and get pretty soon sloppy in keeping watch. Besides that autopilot keeps in most conditions straight course, as they are supposed to do and any blind spot stays excactly in place. While hand steering I regularly take a peek on blind spots changing the course a bit to check those spots, no need to for another pair of eyes even when there're others on deck.

I think both of you guys - and I have enormous respect for both of you old salts - have a point.


In general I think that the autopilot does help a lot reducing workload and allowing you to concentrate on watchkeeping. Helm and lookout are separate jobs on larger vessels, aren't they?


But Teddy's right that being onloaded by the pilot does lead many rec sailors to goof off, losing concentration. Seen it a million times.


So I think you're both right. Pilot can improve watchkeeping, but not for everyone.


When I crossed the Atlantic two years ago, I insisted on vigilant, continuous watchkeeping even when we hadn't seen another vessel in days. We had two commercial mariners in our crew of 7, one of them an unlimited class master. The difference in quality of watckeeping of those guys, compared to the others, all very experienced and good rec sailors, was chalk and cheese. I always felt better when one of them was on watch, and I tried to learn from them as much as I could.

[Kettlewell]

We had two commercial mariners in our crew of 7, one of them an unlimited class master. The difference in quality of watckeeping of those guys, compared to the others, all very experienced and good rec sailors, was chalk and cheese.

Ha! I don't know how many times I have encountered commercial vessels that just plow on regardless of anyone in the vicinity and when you try to raise them on the radio you get nothing! A few times I have come close enough to view the bridge with binoculars and could see no human beings. Obviously, not every commercial vessel is like that, but some are. Fishing boats, tugs, and ferries are notorious for ignoring everyone and everything in their way. I am reminded of the offshore trawler that ran ashore directly below Beavertail Light (64 feet, 15 mile visibility, fog horn) in Rhode Island. Someone had obviously plugged the waypoint in then fell asleep.

[Jim Cate]

Dockhead, exactly what was different about the watchkeeping of the pros vs the yotties? You make it sound like there were startling differences ("chalk and cheese")... what were they?

Jim

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dockhead, exactly what was different about the watchkeeping of the pros vs the yotties? You make it sound like there were startling differences ("chalk and cheese")... what were they?

Jim

You didn't ask me but in my experience it's the professionalism. A good pro has a routine doing tasks, the traditional watchkeeping, adjusting and checking radar, reading radio messeges etc. Not saying most experienced yotties do things, but more casually, some of them forgetting to check radar and radio.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dockhead, exactly what was different about the watchkeeping of the pros vs the yotties? You make it sound like there were startling differences ("chalk and cheese")... what were they?

Jim

It really was chalk and cheese.

The pros looked ahead continuously like they were driving a car, with regular horizon scans, and kept a good watch on the radar at all times and in all weather. Even in the middle of the ocean.

Taking a break to use the head or get a cup of coffee, they would do a full horizon scan, and be back on deck in 2-3 minutes, and if they needed more time than that, they would ask someone to relieve them.

No lying in the cockpit facing aft, reading books or listening to music, or the other stuff which non-pros often do on watch once they get offshore.

I really appreciated that.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Ha! I don't know how many times I have encountered commercial vessels that just plow on regardless of anyone in the vicinity and when you try to raise them on the radio you get nothing! A few times I have come close enough to view the bridge with binoculars and could see no human beings. Obviously, not every commercial vessel is like that, but some are. Fishing boats, tugs, and ferries are notorious for ignoring everyone and everything in their way. I am reminded of the offshore trawler that ran ashore directly below Beavertail Light (64 feet, 15 mile visibility, fog horn) in Rhode Island. Someone had obviously plugged the waypoint in then fell asleep.

Sure, no one said all nominal pros are actually pro.

The great majority of commercial vessels we encounter are very well run, but some are not. With fishing boats of course it's much worse.

One of my guys was a highly paid superyacht captain (my friend's other boat is a 100 foot motor yacht), highly trained, so he was above average in every way. And a great guy to boot.

I taught him how to sail some years ago in Singapore -- from zero. His experience was on tankers and superyachts. He was pretty much a master of sailing within a week; certainly I had nothing more I could teach him. Amazing talent.

[Kettlewell]

The great majority of commercial vessels we encounter are very well run, but some are not. With fishing boats of course it's much worse.

And then there's the time I was 100 miles offshore from New York and a cruise ship a couple of miles away hailed me at night to say I was showing incorrect running lights. I was using a masthead tricolor under sail. I proceeded to argue with him, and another nearby sailor I couldn't see joined me on the radio. The cruise ship then altered course and came dangerously close to us, making us alter course and blinding us with his enormous spotlight for some reason, before heading off. Maybe it was entertainment for the passengers.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

And then there's the time I was 100 miles offshore from New York and a cruise ship a couple of miles away hailed me at night to say I was showing incorrect running lights. I was using a masthead tricolor under sail. I proceeded to argue with him, and another nearby sailor I couldn't see joined me on the radio. The cruise ship then altered course and came dangerously close to us, making us alter course and blinding us with his enormous spotlight for some reason, before heading off. Maybe it was entertainment for the passengers.

(note to my self: don't start rant about cruise ships) Those f* idiots lighted up like christmas trees so bright it makes it really frustrating to trying to see their nav lights.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

(note to my self: don't start rant about cruise ships) Those f* idiots lighted up like christmas trees so bright it makes it really frustrating to trying to see their nav lights.

They are easy to see. Tend to be lite up like a fair sized industrial town. Sidelights can be an a bit lost in the backscatter.
I did chat to Big Princess one night and casually mentioned having the "Red Light District" forward on the starboard side was a little confusing. He told me it was a high end "coffee shop."

I still ha my doubts. I think they have gone bit down market. Since Carnival took over.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dockhead, exactly what was different about the watchkeeping of the pros vs the yotties? You make it sound like there were startling differences ("chalk and cheese")... what were they?

Jim

I left it for Dockhead to answer it being his observation.

He was Concise and on point.

To elaborate, experience, training, education. Mostly experience.
To get to a high certification it takes years of experience watch keeping.
Experience can vary greatly. Good experience is easy to spot.

Its where there eyes are.

Experience. I'd be willing to bet as a junior watch keeper. They have all had a scare or two with something getting to close for comfort. Knowing they had let their guard down.
I can tell a trainee. They don't really get it until they get a bit wrong. With reasonable practice you catch your mistakes before they get to close. Or somebody catches them for you. Or you just get lucky.
For me it wasn't just luck, I spent quite a lot of time, working with experienced watch keepers. Who let me learn before they would step in.
So when the time came I was prepared. Even so I still made mistakes. I'm not infallible yet.

The hardest time to keep a good watch is when is when you don't expect to see anything. You learn best by making your own mistakes. You learn to always be watching.
Looking out. not in or down.

In clear weather, When you can see the horizon, You can spot the masts of and upper works of an approaching ship 20 miles away. From the bridge of a ship. Average speed 15 knots each. You are closing 3 miles every 6 minutes.
The closer it gets the less time you have to do something about it.
See it at 14 miles. Not a problem See it at 8 miles Still Ok.
See it at 5 miles. You know you screwed up. now you got to act right away.
You learned something, Hopefully.
We have all done it and got away with it at 5 miles or maybe a bit less.

Where, Well out in the middle of nowhere on a clear day. My mind wasn't as on the job as it should have been. So you get a bit of a wakeup call. Or a reminder.
Keep your eyes looking out. All the time. If im talking to you and I'm not looking it you. It's a habit. You learn by experience.

It's not something i would refer to as Pros V Yotties.
I've met lots of Pros who are not good at it. I've met sailors who are good at it.
I'v met fishermen who are good at it and others who will never learn.

I often meet new minted watchkeepers who, Still are learning. We all still learn.
Sailing small boats helped me learn as well.

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Sorry to hear about this. You and the other boat were probably both on autopilot. By any chance was your autopilot steering to a waypoint? If both boats were steering to waypoints, the odds of head on collisions like this are greatly multiplied.

We were on a magnetic heading. I cannot comment on the other vessel.

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Radar -- a good radar set, in reasonable sea conditions -- will detect almost anything which could be a collision problem, and without relying on the target broadcasting anything. A far better enhancement to the mandatory watchkeeping by sight and hearing, than AIS.

I did a passage using the radar recently and I noticed a critical problem. If the other vessel is far away, the doppler will "paint" them as a large red or green smudge. It's easy to see and track. However, if the vessel is nearby, the colour smudge doesn't appear to work and the radar signature or blip becomes very small - like a wave near the boat. Thus, it's easy to confuse the blip for sea swells.

I need to check how the set boundaries and alarms for the next passage.

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by more

first step must be call radio and inform authority accident,wait cost guard,police,port authority come and make document.

We made a conscious decision not to call the coast guard. In the country we are in, they will typically confiscate the boats to certify their safety, etc. Since the other party stopped to share information, there was no need to call the police. Also the location was very poor to seek surveys etc.

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The cases I have read, when neither kept watch, were 50/50. Yes, sail is stand on, but if no one was watching it doesn't matter, does it? Nothing in the rules says that sail can keep a lesser watch. See also rule 17.

We have a surveillance camera that records the stern. It shows me keeping watch, looking around and forward. Definitely paying attention. But sitting down. I need to move more.

I suspect the low genoa, the wind on the beam (80-90 Deg) causing a bit of rolling/heeling, the inflatable on the roof (for the kids), the dirty windows on the dodger (we tried cleaning the plastic earlier but there's something strange on it), and maybe the swells all contributed. I also relied on the crew to keep watch to starboard (discussed before we departed) since they were sitting there, but with that side on the lower side of the sail, I can see how their visibility was compromised.

Some changes we made: cleared the roof of toys, purchased a special cleaner for the dodger windows (80% better), use the radar more, move around more. We cannot sail due to damage so we are only cruising on motor now.

[svtickles]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Be aware that under sail your boat yields leeway. Its true line is a crab angle to windward and a slide too leeward. As such it is imperative to keep watch below the jib. Typical slide to leeward is about 5-8 degrees unless you are a high performance shape. The additional crab angle may cut off several more degrees of the field of view.

Thanks for sharing. I was aware of the slide but didn't appreciate the resulting loss of visibility. I thought if I had the forward path covered, the risk was negligible. Definitely a learning lesson.