I need some basic no nonsense information about my first yacht please

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

“A strong heavy boat with a full keel…”. Why? What’s your reasoning and logic for this requirement?

Ah yes, this is the question I've been waiting for. Why do they recommend "A strong heavy boat with a full keel."

It's two things: Myth and Fear.

The Myth: Well, strong yes, but that does not need to mean heavy. And heavy does you almost nothing. The full keel is little more than a handicap. Yes, you can bounce off a rock with insignificant damage but is that why you want a full keel, because you expect to hit rocks? That full keel gets you nothing else and it doesn't even get you that; the rocks can still wreck your boat.

But the Fear thing, that's where we need to look closer. People are afraid of the unknown, what might happen and what it will be like. They grab any lifeline that might save them from that unknown danger, like "heavy". Yeah, that would be better. Nope, it isn't.

I read recently that a with performance boat people could more easily get into "trouble". "Trouble"? That's a dog whistle. What's "trouble"? I guess people are, in their deepest psyches, afraid that things will happen, things where they won't know what to do and they will be scared. So they hear "get into trouble" and they think, "Oh no, I don't want that". When someone says, "Heavy, full keel, you won't get into trouble" they are thankful, but they are being deceived.

It's like "Knock down". Another dog whistle. It's a question I hear all the time, "Have you ever been in a 'knock down'. I don't know how to answer that. What, exactly, is a "knock down" anyway? Pushed over and rounded up, with sails shaking and all hell breaking loose? Yeah, plenty of times. You get out of it and you reduce sail or you are more careful. But scared of it? Don't be.

OK, I get it. If you have not been there it can be scary. But getting a heavy, full keel boat to avoid knock downs? Won't work. They get knocked down too.

We all have our fears, but selecting a heavy full keel boat because of them is not the solution.

The solution to those fears is knowledge, and we get that by learning and experience. Heading out to sea with our fears unresolved, protected only by a "heavy, full keel" boat, will make sailing more dangerous and less fun.

By the way, the You Tube videos, with the strong, stoic man holding the helm and the fear stricken, bikini clad babe, just feed the fears. Scorn them.

[fsuklee]

Why is she wearing just a blanket in the thumbnail? Did she not know a hurricane was coming?

[Oeanda]

Originally Posted by fsuklee

Why is she wearing just a blanket in the thumbnail? Did she not know a hurricane was coming?

.

Because that way, it might blow off! As in- please $ub$cribe to our channel and find out….

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Ah yes, this is the question I've been waiting for. Why do they recommend "A strong heavy boat with a full keel."

It's two things: Myth and Fear.

The Myth: Well, strong yes, but that does not need to mean heavy. And heavy does you almost nothing. The full keel is little more than a handicap. Yes, you can bounce off a rock with insignificant damage but is that why you want a full keel, because you expect to hit rocks? That full keel gets you nothing else and it doesn't even get you that; the rocks can still wreck your boat.

But the Fear thing, that's where we need to look closer. People are afraid of the unknown, what might happen and what it will be like. They grab any lifeline that might save them from that unknown danger, like "heavy". Yeah, that would be better. Nope, it isn't.

I read recently that a with performance boat people could more easily get into "trouble". "Trouble"? That's a dog whistle. What's "trouble"? I guess people are, in their deepest psyches, afraid that things will happen, things where they won't know what to do and they will be scared. So they hear "get into trouble" and they think, "Oh no, I don't want that". When someone says, "Heavy, full keel, you won't get into trouble" they are thankful, but they are being deceived.

It's like "Knock down". Another dog whistle. It's a question I hear all the time, "Have you ever been in a 'knock down'. I don't know how to answer that. What, exactly, is a "knock down" anyway? Pushed over and rounded up, with sails shaking and all hell breaking loose? Yeah, plenty of times. You get out of it and you reduce sail or you are more careful. But scared of it? Don't be.

OK, I get it. If you have not been there it can be scary. But getting a heavy, full keel boat to avoid knock downs? Won't work. They get knocked down too.

We all have our fears, but selecting a heavy full keel boat because of them is not the solution.

The solution to those fears is knowledge, and we get that by learning and experience. Heading out to sea with our fears unresolved, protected only by a "heavy, full keel" boat, will make sailing more dangerous and less fun.

By the way, the You Tube videos, with the strong, stoic man holding the helm and the fear stricken, bikini clad babe, just feed the fears. Scorn them.

So agreed on the fear and myth. You don’t need a heavy full keeper to sail around the world, never mind the Caribbean. And you definitely don’t want one in the med where there are a lot of marinas and also med style docking.

Get a reasonably decent sailing boat in good condition, sails well, then look for storage , good outdoor space and easy access to/from the water. That’s 90% of your needs right there.

[Pinchecharlie]

Hmm..we’ll iam embarrassed I d assumed strong heavy boat with intregal keel was some what of a colloquialism. Like good bones or back when they made them right ect ect. Having absolutely zero real knowledge is good and bad lol. Now if o was super rich I’d land my helicopter on a giant thing filled with luxurious and not worry about money. I do see myself trying it. Every time someone says not to lol. I’ll say it again, iam 55 and I don’t have a life time left. Some of you who’s fathers and maybe grandfathers took you sailing may have as much time as this sailing. It’s a Internet forum so…what do I know? If you asked me how to get you to class v whitewater I’d tell you.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Ah yes, this is the question I've been waiting for. Why do they recommend "A strong heavy boat with a full keel."

It's two things: Myth and Fear.

The Myth: Well, strong yes, but that does not need to mean heavy. And heavy does you almost nothing. The full keel is little more than a handicap. Yes, you can bounce off a rock with insignificant damage but is that why you want a full keel, because you expect to hit rocks? That full keel gets you nothing else and it doesn't even get you that; the rocks can still wreck your boat.

But the Fear thing, that's where we need to look closer. People are afraid of the unknown, what might happen and what it will be like. They grab any lifeline that might save them from that unknown danger, like "heavy". Yeah, that would be better. Nope, it isn't.

I read recently that a with performance boat people could more easily get into "trouble". "Trouble"? That's a dog whistle. What's "trouble"? I guess people are, in their deepest psyches, afraid that things will happen, things where they won't know what to do and they will be scared. So they hear "get into trouble" and they think, "Oh no, I don't want that". When someone says, "Heavy, full keel, you won't get into trouble" they are thankful, but they are being deceived.

It's like "Knock down". Another dog whistle. It's a question I hear all the time, "Have you ever been in a 'knock down'. I don't know how to answer that. What, exactly, is a "knock down" anyway? Pushed over and rounded up, with sails shaking and all hell breaking loose? Yeah, plenty of times. You get out of it and you reduce sail or you are more careful. But scared of it? Don't be.

OK, I get it. If you have not been there it can be scary. But getting a heavy, full keel boat to avoid knock downs? Won't work. They get knocked down too.

We all have our fears, but selecting a heavy full keel boat because of them is not the solution.

The solution to those fears is knowledge, and we get that by learning and experience. Heading out to sea with our fears unresolved, protected only by a "heavy, full keel" boat, will make sailing more dangerous and less fun.

By the way, the You Tube videos, with the strong, stoic man holding the helm and the fear stricken, bikini clad babe, just feed the fears. Scorn them.

one of the better posts on CF lately...

cheers,

[fsuklee]

Originally Posted by Oeanda

.

Because that way, it might blow off! As in- please $ub$cribe to our channel and find out….

Sub$ get $naps!!

[mvweebles]

I'll take a different tack.

You have no idea what boat is right for you right now let alone in 5 years.

Second, I doubt there are many who's sailing dreams fell apart because they couldn't learn to sail. Crusing dreams fall apart because other reasons. Spend more money than planned, mismatch of desire between a couple, too much work, etc.

Third, your challenges may be finding a slip and getting insurance. Start working on those in parallel. No sense buying a 40 foot boat if all you can find is a 34 foot slip.

Finally, the expensive part of owning a boat is less initial cost and more ongoing cost. Buying a project boat is rarely a good deal. Parts are expensive - price 316 fasteners at McMaster. Unlike a house, nothing is square - the entire boat is more or less custom finish carpentry.

Find a boat in good condition that is reasonably priced and well known. I know, a Catalina 36 is pedestrian, but they are easy to sell if you're willing to price a few percentage points under market. Or you may love the boat and its fine for you for 10-years. Join a local yacht club and ask around for experienced crew to run the boat while you learn. Otherwise, you motor it on all but easiest days and build confidence.

[SV Tom Crean]

Good post above and spot on. Good advice.

On the subject of long keelers it reminds me of a conversation I had with a Hans Christian 48 owner (he has a YouTube channel I think). Anyway he was trying to persuade everyone that a full keel, double ender was the most perfect, most seaworthy boat, bestest cruiser ever. I bit my lip as I watched his wife and daughter struggle to get in and out of the dingy, let alone find a space big enough on the deck to lie out in the sun. I wondered where he might stick davits or some solar or even find some decent locker space. And the amount of varnish made me weep at the thought of the maintenance.

Anyway same owner said he’d never take an Amel across an ocean as they had bolt on keels and so we’re not seaworthy.

Myths and fears strike again.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Almost all modern boats are moderate to light fin keel spade rudder boats and they are sailed all over the world. Any one of them will do what OP says he wants.

Yes, this is true.
However, I based my answer Not on what the boats can/could do, but what the OP said he wanted, ie. "a heavy full keel boat".
I got some flack for that, but I did infer, (I think,) that he would learn to sail first in a smaller higher performance boat.
Those who have decades of experience and 10s of thousands of miles under their keels seem to have little trouble in recommending a lightweight modern boat to a novice, perhaps forgetting the depth of knowledge/experience that has allowed them to successfully handle a tall high-strung rig in less-than-ideal conditions.
Another factor that the OP implied was "budget".
It's all too easy to toss-out makes/models/years of more modern boats that in the end can suck-up the OPs entire budget before he even leaves the dock.
My recommendation won't break the bank, and no matter the condemning posts disparaging an "old fashioned slow/heavy boat", it still remains that a W32 can take novice sailors anywhere in safety, carry tons of junk, be easy to work on and care for, while using a lower stress rig, and less money.
Me? I would love to have an early S&S Swan 43, (not a lightweight,) but an Alajuela 38 could also push my buttons.
Now isn't that a dichotomy. ?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

...Those who have decades of experience and 10s of thousands of miles under their keels seem to have little trouble in recommending a lightweight modern boat to a novice, perhaps forgetting the depth of knowledge/experience that has allowed them to successfully handle a tall high-strung rig in less-than-ideal conditions...

I didn't recommend a "tall high-strung rig" for a novice.

But we both have good points in our comments.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

On the subject of long keelers it reminds me of a conversation I had with a Hans Christian 48 owner (he has a YouTube channel I think). Anyway he was trying to persuade everyone that a full keel, double ender was the most perfect, most seaworthy boat, bestest cruiser ever. I bit my lip as I watched his wife and daughter struggle to get in and out of the dingy, let alone find a space big enough on the deck to lie out in the sun. I wondered where he might stick davits or some solar or even find some decent locker space. And the amount of varnish made me weep at the thought of the maintenance.

An excellent example of my point of understanding the difference between cruising and sailing.

How will you store the dingy or get in and out of it has little to do with sailing and much to do with cruising. Same for where will you hang out and relax or mount solar panels. Absolutely hate exterior wood because unless you enjoy a hobby of refinishing it, eventually it's just going to have the weathered look but almost nothing to do with sailing. (interior wood in moderation can be OK).

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

However, I based my answer Not on what the boats can/could do, but what the OP said he wanted, ie. "a heavy full keel boat".

A fundamental challenge responding on these forums.
- Do you respond to the question very literally even though it's probably misleading to an inexperienced OP?
- Or do you adjust the question to be more appropriate to what the OP should be considering and then respond to that?

[JPA Cate]

A fundamental challenge responding on these forums.
- Do you respond to the question very literally even though it's probably misleading to an inexperienced OP?
- Or do you adjust the question to be more appropriate to what the OP should be considering and then respond to that?

Yes it is, and when someone is without experience, they don't really know what kinds of questions to ask, so about the best they can do is find the answers to what they asked that resonate with them, so the opposing views about why someone like wingless would recommend a light, fun to sail boat, and why Bowdrie would recommend the antithesis of that, as their underlying reasoning is explained, can be really informative. None of our boats have been full keeled crab crushers, either. Big, heavy, full keeled boats are often to be seen motoring downwind. Catamarans are often seen motoring upwind.

Our lighter, fin keel boats are sailing in both circumstances. But it's not just about keels. If either for reasons of self-esteem, or driven by lack of $$, someone wants to maintain their boat, then access to do so may be more important than the looks of the interior. If someone wants to be able to sail everywhere, light air sails are important, and light air sailing may be some of the pleasantest sailing you'll ever do. Some folks love bashing to windward. Me, I like off the wind better, but we have done a fair wee bit of bashing, also. So the OP can start to see and feel what s/he likes in the way of layouts and weather, and what they'd prefer in the way of handholds, and what a boat will be like to get around or cook in a seaway.

One of the benefits of racing, actually, is that you go out every weekend in whatever weather your area has to offer, and you learn to sail in all those conditions. Another benefit is that you sail on their investment and experience how they look after the boat. I had one skipper who would tell you to go below and get a snatch block or something, and when asked where it might be found, would answer, "it's down there, somewhere."
Another skipper would say it was "in the starboard forward seatback locker." It is one of the places the utility of sailing language is easily seen, too.

People's personalities vary, and so do their choices of boats. The popular French boats these days seem to try to have a modern condo appearance for those who are drawn to that, and to also strive for fun in sailing. Catalina and others have followed that lead. There are lots of boats I would not be interested in, but the OP has to start somewhere. Just consider noelex 77 & Seaworthy Lass's new one off [they wrote about the build in the thread "Bestevaer 49"*], the fruition of a lot of sailing experience and decisions about what they wanted the boat to be able to do. You'll get to see some very well informed choices.

So most of us give answers related to how we started. For me, it was other people's boats. Hence the recommendation to move somewhere there is an active sailing community, and volunteer as crew. If one does that, and helps at haulout time, one can learn heaps. And, lessons aren't necessary. We learn a lot from modeling, and following up on learning opportunities, and a lot about the rules of sailing, like who is the stand on boat, maintaining course and speed, and who is changing course to avoid collision. There's a lot to learn, and taking courses will help, too, if well taught, but learning in the moment by doing definitely has a serious place in one's experience. So, a season's commitment will give you more learning than 2 or 3 three day courses. Sailing on different types of boats will also inform your choices of aft vs. center cockpit, and other preferences you will form.




Ann


*Use a CF Custom Google Search, and put in Bestevaer 49 and noelex 77, and you'll find the thread.....



PS: The people who publish on vlogs on cruising on You Tube are involved in a commercial competition with other You Tubers; hence the need to make the videos attractive to a wide body of possible watchers. They lose a lot of authenticity because of the demands of the medium.

It is similar to marketing driving boat design. And one can choose to not participate.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

I’ve yet to see an 80’s boat which isn’t getting chalky”. Some sealer and wax you’ve got it delayed but glass gets old and weak with age and good use.
Older boats are parts lists. Each part has a history of good and bad purchase options never cheap. My runabout is old from the 80’s but spent most it’s life in a barn.
Maybe I should reread but racing fixed keel in the same paragraph must mean there are old timer races in your area. Most are several knots slower like a week behind you on vacation. Some of them don’t point worth a hoot either. Embrace the evolution. Old boat more often than not cost more and you spend more time fixing them than boating. You’ll meet high paid doctors at marinas and clubs so infatuated with their boat repairs they take on skill sets and perform complex marine maintenance and restoration below the standards or a real marine mechanic is at least 5 times the time. They loose sight on what they actually do for a living to afford a boat.
Suddenly your boat has nicer stuff than your house!
The twin cabins from the Hunter 33 up to the Jeanneau and Beneteau 36-38 and a range of Catalina’s is likely where you’ll find a reasonable boat easy to maintain. 1997 on they were all pretty much equal.

Your usual misinformation that you like to peddle here. I would be afraid to ask where you pull these claims out of.