In-Water Survey

[Cassive]

Common sense tells me an in-water survey is not as good as a traditional survey where the boat is hauled out, but if the marina where a boat is kept does not have the capability to pull the boat, is an in-water survey acceptable? Or do I tell the seller straight up that if he doesn't make arrangements to haul the boat out, I'm not going to pursue it any further? I've never gone thru this before, so I'm not familiar with who pays for what, etc. Will I have to pay for the boat to be hauled out or is that the seller's responsibility? I really like this boat, but don't want to cut any corners either.

[SilentOption]

Whether the in water survey is adequate may depend on your insurance company somewhat but mostly it depends on you.

As a buyer I'd like to see the bottom and the running gear. If its not possible to haul the boat where its at how far is it to a place that can do a short haul?

A haulout, when part of the pre-purchase survey would normally be paid for by the buyer unless the seller agreed otherwise. As an incentive to sell my last boat I paid for the haulout. It was in the slings for about an hour and went right back in the water for the sea trial.

Every survey doesn't include a haulout and a seat trial.
As a buyer you should do some internet reasearch on the boat. The internet allows us to know more than ever what we might be getting into. If boats from a specific manufacturer built in the year of the boat you are looking at have had problems with blisters or other costly issues you can find out ahead of time. Information you find out about the structural integrity of the boat will help determine how far you want to go.

Don't expect the surveyor to spend time doing research. You will almost certainly get a report based on actual findings only.

This is a long answer to your simple question but... Its raining so I have nothing to do but sit on my butt and write.

Find out if your insurance company will require a haulout.
If they don't require it then you must decide if you need to see the bottom or want the surveyor to see it before you'll buy.
If the insurance company insists on a haulout they may accept it at a later date but stipulate another survey report specific to the haulout.
If the boat has to be taken to a location other than where it lives for a haulout you may be asked to pay for the captain to take it there.

How bad does the owner want to sell and how bad do you want the boat?

Get answers and negotiate.

[Vasco]

I would not buy a used boat without a complete survey.

[Latitude9.5]

I would definitely haul it, if for no other reason then I am sure the insurance company will require and out of water survey, so you will effectively be doing a survey twice if you buy the boat.

[Cassive]

I think I already knew the answer, I just needed someone to tell me... The boat is up near San Jose and I'm in San Diego, so dealing with people long distance using the phone is never easy. Looks like it's time to call the seller and give him an ultimatum.

[ssullivan]

Definitely haul the boat out of the water for your survey.

Also, as the potential buyer, the survey and transporting the boat to the haul out location is 100% your responsibility and at your cost.

Of course, you have to work with the seller regarding transportation, but it's all you.

Now, when I bought my last boat, I was in the same position as you are. What we did is the seller and I took the boat over to the place with the haulout facility together.

He said, "you take us over", so I piloted the vessel from one marina to the other. He was a smart guy having me do that, as it gave me a feel for some of the boat's qualities. It helped sell the boat to me.

After the survey, I was on board again to head back to the original marina. This was my sea trial where I got the sails up, sailed the boat, asked a bazillion questions of the seller, etc... Also a very worthwhile thing to do.

So in a way... you are very lucky to have to move the boat. It gives you plenty of time on the boat pre-purchase to discover any problems and work them into the deal, like I did.

PS: You can become buddies with the seller on these little trips and before you know it, you have someone who is not your adversary, but a pair of people who want to get the deal done. Worked VERY well for me. Don't drop ultimatums! Save that for the end of the deal!! (or hire me.. ha ha) kidding about hiring me, but serious about your negotiation strategy!

[Pblais]

Always best to have the surveyor handy before the move so they can do a cold engine start. It's a typical thing worth doing. The engine may not start so easy when it's cold. It also lets the surveyor see how it comes up to temperature as well.

As Sean notes the move makes a perfect time to take the boat and make it do what boats are supposed to do - motor to the marina!

[SilentOption]

Talk of the engine and potential issues brings up another good point. Before you hire a surveyor ask if he or she, surveys engines, both the main and genset if one is installed. Most surveyors will not take responsibility for the condition of the powerplants beyond make, model, physical appearance and if the engine appears to achieve normal operating temps at the moment they observed it running.
That often means another surveyor on the payroll who specializes in engines.
If you don't intend to hire an engine surveyor ask exactly what you will know about the engine when the report is written.
If do intend to hire someone specifically for the engine make sure they are on board when the boat moves to the haulout. Otherwise there will be another trip and possibly more expense.

[hellosailor]

Acceptable means whatever the two of you can agree on, and if your insurer requires something else or more of you--that's your problem, not the sellers. "Ultimatum" just means goodbye, go away, you can't force the seller to do anything.

You can always look to other options though, like putting 20% of the sale price in escrow "pending any repairs found necessary by a survey after hauling the boat within 30 days of purchase". The seller might balk and suggest $5000 not 20%, but that's why a boat sale is usually a negotiation--not a retail sale at Macys.

You getting a rigging survey? An engine survey? Those don't need hauls. Checking the bottom for blisters is possible in the water--just gonna cost more, and require a clean hull to start with. Checking for hull moisture content, now, that's gonna be impossible in the water. Whether you'd take a chance on skipping that, really would depend on the impression the rest of the boat makes on you.

[BlueWaterSail]

I had a diver clean the hull and do an inspection in the water when I purchased Splendor earlier this year. The cost was $65.00 and I received a report from the company. This was followed by an in-water survey by a separate company.

In my case, I had gotten to know the seller a little during the various times I inspected the boat, and his statement that the hull was in good shape and had been hauled and painted last year were supported by the excellent condition & appearance above the waterline, and the fact that we had established a degree of trust.

Insurance wise, the age and overall value (in the eyes of the insurance co.) of Splendor meant it was only worth insuring against liability, and the survey was not required for this.

However, the survey did a lot towards adusting the seller's price expectations lower, based on stuff that needed to be done. The $400 I spent on the survey knocked $2K off the price of the boat when the sale closed.

[Cassive]

I have really appreciated everyone's input and, after only a few posts on this forum, I've gained some great knowledge on the process of purchasing a boat. After some personal debate, I decided against pursuing the vessel I was interested in up in San Francisco. Being that it was a private individual selling the boat and everything has to work around his work schedule, trying to coordinate having the boat hauled out and surveyed was becoming difficult. Also, I'm not able to make the trip up there at the present time due to my schedule, so after some personal debate, I decided to focus my search on the southern California area for the present time. I found another vessel in Long Beach that I'm going to look at this afternoon and, the fact that there is a broker involved with this one, seems to make the whole process simpler, at least for someone like me who is purchasing their first large boat. Thanks again for all of your informative and timely input and if I have another issue, I know where to go!

[ssullivan]

Glad to hear you came to a conclusion.

I have a tip for you (or anyone) buying a boat privately:

Follow the exact process a broker would follow. The process works and is there for a reason. Use similar agreements, dot "i"'s and cross "t"'s as you would with a broker.

If you follow that process, you will be safe during the purchasing or selling of your boat.

[TabbyCat]

Cassive,
So did you buy that second boat?

Typically, if the boat is less than 10 years old and to be used in US waters, you don't need a survey for insurance. (But you should definitely get one to help you with the buying decision & negotiations.)

I know of only one company that will accept an in-water survey if you also have a diver inspect & provide a report on the underwater running gear & the condition of the hull.