Insurance Considerations

[John Casey]

Our current plan is for us (a couple) to buy a cat to live aboard in the SE US or Carib until we find out what we're doing before potentially heading out any further. If we find something in the Med, we'd likely start there as well.

This is our current list of considerations and/or questions for any potential insurance company we go with. The list is as much for our decision making process as it is to avoid any misunderstandings or gotchas with the underwriters when we need them the most.

Personal liability amount
Depreciated vs actual vs agreed value
Inspection vs survey and how old
Hurricane areas and what dates
Other no-go areas
Who pays for salvage costs
Is company hands-on during claim
Consequential coverage
Anything excluded
Loyalty and claims free discount
Lift/launch coverage
Frost/freeze coverage
Personal effects & guest effects
Uninsured boater
Liveaboard
Deductibles
Underwriters
Tender coverage
Medical coverage
Pollution/Reef/Environmental
Personal boating experience
Country of registration
Crew size for passage
Grounding or other mistakes
Routine maintenance vs professional work
Breakdown coverage/clause
Geographic region impact
Ballpark figure for premium
Time required to start coverage

As an aside, our current short list of companies is below, but as I sat down to write this post, I came across Mike's great survey here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-184913-3.html
Based on Mike's info we may talk to a few more:

Dolphin Insurance Services
International Marine Insurance Services
The Pegasus Group
Offshore Risk Management
Cowan Insurance Group

We have emails and vmails out to all of them, and so far have had a preliminary talk with Ken from Pegasus.

Any comments/suggestions are appreciated.

[maxingout]

We used International Marine for many years, and although we had never had any claims, we have been happy with their service. When I call them up, I always get someone to talk to who helps me out. I plan to continue with IMIS.

[John Casey]

Dave, are you on their Jackline policy?

Based on your websites, it doesn't appear there exclusions or things you are prohibited from

[Mike OReilly]

Hi John. Glad you found the survey, and that the info was useful. I'm going to try and update it annually. Meanwhile, hope all goes well with your search.

[Paul L]

Don't confuse insurance brokers with underwriters. The brokers are the face when selling you a poIicy. The underwriter is who will offer up the actual contract and needs to be the one who stands behind it.

[John Casey]

We have talked to 4, and waiting on 2.

Some observations so far:

Comparing apples to apples as much as possible we have a range of .575 to 1.6% so far.

Formal quotes and educated guesses based on the broker's experience.

Some details to be refined once on board will likely adjust premiums from all underwriters downward.

Two took particular interest in our sailing resumés, Two seemed only interested when I brought it up in terms of lowering premiums.

One said the Med was less than the Caribbean, one said can't cover me in the Med.

Hurricane boxes have been different for each of them. Most date are to end Oct. One was for end of Nov.

Only one said I can go to Cuba, but I will have to call to discuss.

One company was incapable of discussing any potential policy WRT a "yet to be purchased" vessel and the fact that we did not know whether we would head north or south during hurricane season. I did not bother to keep going at that point with them.

[Integra]

Hi John,

Have you found a boat yet? If so, which insurer did you choose in the end?

You seem to have asked them so many questions, it might save me some time!

We've just bought a 2015 Lagoon 450 and will be sailing the Med next year (Wife and children age 19 and 21) before heading across the Atlantic next December.

I have a choice of keeping her in a berth or on dry land for the next six months. Which would you recommend, and is it still necessary to insure the full hull value if she's on dry land?

Many thanks,
Jason

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Integra

I have a choice of keeping her in a berth or on dry land for the next six months. Which would you recommend, and is it still necessary to insure the full hull value if she's on dry land?

When we bought our boat recently we kept her on the hard for about 7 months. We had the same option of water vs. hard storage, but we knew we'd want to haul and do some work at the end of the waiting period anyway. On the hard (at a good location) seemed more secure to us. No worries about fouling, or leaks, or.... We paid a guy in the yard to come by and open the hatches on sunny days, and also to do a complete washdown the day before we arrived (much worth the investment when the admiral arrived to a sparkly clean boat). All still cheaper than an in the water berth (but YMMV depending on location).

We also had full cover, but it was very inexpensive, as the boat was on the hard (the insurer knew that and wrote the policy that way) and was a local insurance company (since the boat isn't moving no need for Lloyd's and international cover - as long as the local firm is reputable/trusted).

Overall we found on the hard to be much less expensive and very satisfactory. I suspect a lot of that has to do with location and the particular yard, but that's our experience.

[John Casey]

Originally Posted by Integra

...which insurer did you choose in the end?

...is it still necessary to insure the full hull value if she's on dry land?

Jason, congrats on the purchase!

We have an accepted offer pending survey/sea-trial on a boat that is currently in Key Largo, so things are obviously on hold until the storm clears.

We talked to the following folks. Some where brokers and some were the underwriters directly:

Dolphin Insurance Services (CA)
International Marine Insurance Services (US)
The Pegasus Group (US)
Pantaenius (DE)
Offshore Risk Management (US)
Cowan Insurance Group (CA)
McMichael-Davis Marine Insurance (CA)
Coastal Insurance (US)

The three that were the most value (not necessarily cost) for me when we were dealing with a potential boats were Cowan, Pegasus, and Coastal.

Once we are satisfied with the survey/sea-trial our closing isn't until 30 Oct so we'll have plenty of time to finalize details.

Cowan is a Canadian company so they may not be able to insure you but I would check. They cater to members of Canada Power & Sail members so it may be worth joining.

Pegasus (Kent Urbine) and Coastal (Anthony Ballinger) both had me with an affiliate of Lloyds and were close on their quotes.

Lloyds also seemed to respond the most to our sailing resumes.

Dolphin is Canadian as well, and more expensive, but they did have an interesting "wear & tear" coverage that others did not.

I would not discount Canadian companies if you're American due to the 20%+ discount you can get with US$ due to the current exchange rate. Don't know what purchasing parity will mean vs the Rand.

Since you're in S. Africa, you likely have some companies/brokers better suited to your needs than those over here.

Reference your question on full coverage, that is a personal decision. I will always have my vessel fully covered. Some other people self insure.

Regardless, ensure you check what insurance a boat yard carries when moving, working on, or storing your boat and discuss this with your underwriter.

To store in the water or land will depend on a lot of variables. You're arguably "safer" from weather on land, but not always. For example is the yard near a flood plain or susceptible to a storm surge? There are many guys on the forum here that have person experience with each choice and the consequences as a result.

The aftermath of the current storm may (unfortunately) give you an idea from each choice.

[Integra]

Hi John and Dsanduril,

Thank you both for taking the time to give me such comprehensive responses.

John I'm keeping fingers crossed that your potential purchase survives the storm unscathed.

I'm actually a Brit and run my UK business from Cape Town. The plan is to run the business from the boat instead.

I'm going to take your advice and speak to the underwriters before I decide whether to go with the hard standing. It's more expensive in Southern Spain, but if the insurer will discount the premium, I'll go with the hard standing for all the reasons you outlined.

I'm waiting for quotes from Pantaenius and a couple of other UK insurers, but will be sure to contact Cowan, Pegasus and Coastal.

I also got a quote from Insure4Boats.co.uk which at 0.46% of the insured value seemed very cheap. Now I just have to ask them the questions on your list!

All the best,
Jason
(Is there a way to change my Username or show my name on my profile?)

[John Casey]

We ended up going with International Marine Insurance Services (IMIS) and their Jackline policy.

We narrowed it down to the following three before choosing IMIS:

- IMIS with Jackline thru Cyndi Ray <cyndi.imis@gowrie.com>
- E/G of Florida with Pantaenius thru Anthony Ballinger <Anthony@egflorida.com>
- McLean & Dickey with Aviva Elite thru Madison Haggarty <madisonh@mdmarine.ca> (Canadian Company)

In the end we had to decide on a smaller premium vs smaller deductible but couldn't get both to work.

Jackline and Pantaenius had the best dates and size for hurricane boxes, while Aviva was any named storm south of 40N.

The biggest disappointment was Cowan, another Canadian company, but you may have have better luck than we did.

Companies are still writing policies after the worst of this storm season, so take heart for those still searching.