Insurance Hassles Anyone?

[Kelstev]

Thanks for the advice Martinini. Thats an option i'll definetly explore. I'm still interested in what KharmaSeas comes up with so keep us up to date if you don't mind Kharma.

[tackdriver]

am on mobile in Oyster Bay so haven't read all the replies but I recently got insurance under the same circumstances as yours. The company I used was Pantaenius in Germany. PM me if you can't find them.
James

[KharmaSeas]

So I got a quote from IMIS, $15 short of a $1000 to get Liability insurance only????? I bought the boat from an 84 yr old man with one eye who singlehands the boat, his premium is less than $700 for full comprehensive insurance. Is this normal or am I being screwed?

[bobfnbw]

Insurance can be a nightmare. Even if you have it you might not have a good policy. There are so many disclaimers in them that they can get out of almost anything, unless you have a good company and policy.
Once my boat is paid off, I think I will just have the bare minimum, which costs around 250 USD. To fully cover my boat is 2700 USD. Over 10 years the savings will pay for a lot of ground tackle, lines fenders, ect. Of course it takes only one event to make you wish you had it......

[Pblais]

Coverage can have geographic and seasonal restrictions. With unrestricted coverage the premiums are a whole lot higher for far less coverage. It helps to understand what the restrictions are or are not. Agreeing to some restrictions could save you money with the same carrier.

[hellosailor]

Pantaenius in Europe was no longer issuing coverage to boats in the US, but referring folks to their US affiliate/branch.

I suspect a large part of Kharma's problem may be the flagging of the vessel. A foreign insurer would't want to touch a US state-registered motor vehicle, which is all that a boat in the US is, unless it is titled. Of course a foreigner can't US_title a boat in the US, and if you flag it with your home title--you've got to take it out of the US and then re-enter it with a cruising permit, as a foreigner. Don't you?

Then there are all the other issues that every insurer has: Whether it is your first boat, whether you have logged experience in same size vessels, how old the boat is...a long list of what each one will or won't take. IMIS should be able to sort all that out, but the flagging may still be problematic.

[KharmaSeas]

Here is the reply from Pantaenius

Dear Mr. Bolinate,

We have received your request for an insurance quotation for your 1977 Formosa 41 "KHARMASEAS". Unfortunately, due to our underwriting guidelines and the value of your vessel, we must decline your request for coverage. Currently our guidelines do not allow for vessels below $75,000.

We would like to thank you for considering Pantaenius America for your yacht insurance needs, and if we can be of future assistance, please don’t hesitate to contact our office.

Kind regards,

Cathy Masiello

Pantaenius America, Ltd.
500 Mamaroneck Avenue
Harrison, NY 10528
Phone:914.381.2066
Fax: 914.381.2052
Mail:cmasiello@pantaenius.com

[nautical62]

Expanding a bit on what Paul said: I have a friend in charge of claims for a major insurance company. One thing he tells me is that the cost and risk of liability to an insurance company goes up drastically when people are farther from home. While the risk of collision or loss may not be higher, more people try to cheat and the cost of settling a claim goes up exponentially.

Imagine two U.S. boats getting in a collision in the ICW, both U.S. boats insured by U.S. carries, who then take their boats to marinas along the ICW. Each has liability only insurance but have losses to property and injuries they each claim are due to the other party. (Of course each having liability only insurance only serves to increase the finger pointing.)

It's fairly easy to get statements, have adjusters look at the boats, teh injured people and settle between the companies if necessary.

Now image a claim of an Austalian boat and French boat boat both insured by companies in separate countries that had a claim in international waters and are now located in different South Pacific island nations. Not nearly so easy to adjust and settle on.

[hellosailor]

" Not nearly so easy to adjust "
What, they can't pick up a phone and hire a local adjuster for the day? I wouldn't put any creedance in it being [significantly] harder to adjust, but I would say that if the matter had to go to court--the foreign venues and ownerships would make settlements RADICALLY more difficult. And expensive.

[tackdriver]

Originally Posted by KharmaSeas

Here is the reply from Pantaenius
Currently our guidelines do not allow for vessels below $75,000.[/FONT]

Ah, so insure it for more than $75k...
Mine's not worth that either, but I insured for $100k. They seemed happy with that and it cost about $2k all in.

cheers
JMB

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

" Not nearly so easy to adjust "
What, they can't pick up a phone and hire a local adjuster for the day? I wouldn't put any creedance in it being [significantly] harder to adjust, but I would say that if the matter had to go to court--the foreign venues and ownerships would make settlements RADICALLY more difficult. And expensive.

You missed the last three words of the sentence on your quote and they make a difference .

What I said was: "Not so easy to adjust and settle on" I think adjusting claims involving liability settlements is often not as easy as picking up the phone, calling an adjuster in another country and having them handle things the way you want as affordably as you would. I know from talking to people in the business this often gets much more expensive and complex than it is close to home.

What is your basis for not putting any "creedance" in this? Have you been involved in international liability claims frequently? Were the adjustors locally hired and if so do you have knowledge of how the primary insurance company felt about their work? I'd seriously love to hear a first hand account of someone who's had to deal with a liability claim of that complexity.

[hellosailor]

Nautical, i didn't miss three words, I spearated them as being a separate issue.

Adjusting is a process where the insurer has the damaged goods inspected and a value set on the damage, for repair or replacement. Settling, is a separate negotiation process between the insurer and the insured, or other claimants.

Two separate processes.

I have not been employed by an insurer, however I have dealt with insurers in various industries multiple times, and known several people in the business including adjusters.

You seem to think international liability claims is somehow different from any other "international" business. It isn't. Any business that goes "international" faces the same set of complications caused by different venues, regulations, treaties, etc. Liability claims is liability claims, and whether you do it by remote control or locally--that's all it is. If I have a claim in MD and the insurer is in CA, that's still "international" in the sense that tere are two sovereign states involved, each with their own regulations governing insurers, liability, and everything else. If you change that to "Liberia" and "Iceland" instead...the only change is that the airfare costs more, and the players can afford to bluff and game you more, because they know you are going to be less likely to spend the money to come out and visit.

You think Allstate or Geico has a local adjuster in West Podunk, PA? Hell no, they all hire out the same guy, or else they may have to send someone in with a four hour travel bill, each way. As the travel bill and the claim amount intersect--they're less likely to send someone out.

West Podunk, Iceland, Siberia...all the same game. The only thing that changes is the color of the seats in the stadium. More complicated? I don't know...I remember seeing one adjuster discussing a damage with one business owner (the claimant) and then literally kicking in the damaged item before he said "Yeah, I guess you're right, that's got to be replaced."

So what's different internationally? You've got to pay off a translator too?

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by Martinini

If you have automobile insurance in Aus. contact your agent and tell him you bought a boat and just want $300,000 Liability insurance on it and see what happens. Don't volunteer any info about where the boat is. Thats how I got mine, and a better deal then anywhere else.

Martini,
Not disclosing where the boat is woud be a bad idea. If you ever make a claim, it will very likely be denied by the claims adjsuter, since you failed to disclose a material fact. So it might not be a very good deal after all...

Best Regards,
Susan
IMIS

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by KharmaSeas

So I got a quote from IMIS, $15 short of a $1000 to get Liability insurance only????? I bought the boat from an 84 yr old man with one eye who singlehands the boat, his premium is less than $700 for full comprehensive insurance. Is this normal or am I being screwed?

$700 for full coverage insurance? That is an amazing deal compared to what I pay. I do not think that is a very good comparison. Then again, we have hurricanes where I live.

[Boracay]

My car insurance policy (Australian, NSW) has a clause that I must disclose anything that might increase the risk my insurer is taking.