Marine insurance, going naked.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Mike, et al,

One thing about those stats you posted is that while risk of fire was only at ~5%, half of the deaths occurred in the incidents with fires. Maybe this is why we have so many fire extinguishers and a fire blanket!

Very true. Fires have a much higher mortality rate compared to many other causes. Fire is indeed a bad thing on a boat.

It’s important to note that of the total 55,100 events over 11 years, the vast majority happen to: "Open motorboat” at 33,131, and "Personal watercraft” at 15,199. “Cabin motorboat” come in third at 10,776 and "Auxiliary Sail” rings in with 3,107 total events (including all fires).

Remember, there are ~12 million registered boats in the US, and that doesn’t include all the unregistered boats. With this dataset a very conservative comparison, or measure of risk, would apply number of reportable events (55,100 over 11 years) to 12 million boats x 11 years, so 132 million. This is a crude analysis, but approaches the real risk involved. (And this completely ignores the massive skewing of incidents to open motorboats and seadoos).

This puts the rate of a reportable incident at 0.00041742 or 0.041742%

I just don’t understand how anyone can look at these numbers and consider boating to be risky.

It’s certainly true that these numbers paint with a wide brush, and local areas could be quite a bit more risky than others. Interestingly, this USCG database does break things down by state, so Americans could see how risky their local state is.

It’s fun … I encourage everyone to play with it. There’s lots of interesting things to see.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by rwidman

I am glad liability insurance is a requirement for vehicles in my state and I wish it was the same for boats.

Comparing the risk involved between cars and boats is like comparing, well, cars and boats. The main difference being the speeds involved. 0-80+ for cars, 0-6+ for boats. The USCG stats posted by Mike earlier show that the risk on an incident on a boat are very small. What they didn't show was that the great majority of those incidents were caused by power boats or PWC's going very vast. Those of us on sailboats (or trawlers) are moving at much slower speeds, allowing us longer reaction times. F=MV(2) also applies so that if we do have an accident the consequences will be less severe. I use the "never go faster than you want to crash" rule when maneuvering in marinas and, while I have had "incidents" over the years, none have resulted in damage.

I understand your point of view and I too am glad that liability insurance is required for automobiles in California. On the water, however, the chances that I, in my slow-moving boat and my mind set bordering on paranoia, may cause enough damage that I could not afford to pay for it out of pocket, are very small. I carry liability insurance because it is cheap and, in the places where I am currently sailing, it is required. On the other hand, I have sailed in areas where it was either not available, not required or not cheap and did not carry it and it did not bother me.

[newhaul]

This will never be settled
I pay for liability insurance because the marina says I have to have it.
Becides how much damage can I cause with a 24ft sailboat that tops out at 5knots.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I just don’t understand how anyone can look at these numbers and consider boating to be risky.

If you are in a car accident, or even killed on the highway, you won't even make the evening news on TV. That, unfortunately, is common.

But if a sailboat is in trouble, or (heaven forbid) someone dies on a sailboat...stop the presses...that's headlines around the world...because it's so rare.

Recently, the body of a missing local man was found in the waters near Milton Island. Misadventure of a solo kayaking accident, apparently. Headline news here on the CBC (all of Canada).

When I crossed the Atlantic, I figured the most dangerous part was the drive to the airport.

My goal is to stay off the evening news. Unless its because I won the lotto...but what are the odds of that happening?

[hamburking]

Considering how safe sailing is, compared to say...driving a car...boat insurance is surprisingly expensive. That is of course for those of us who do not live in a hurricane zone. I would think it would be almost impossible to buy boat insurance in Florida, St Martin or Barbuda.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by newhaul

This will never be settled
I pay for liability insurance because the marina says I have to have it.
Becides how much damage can I cause with a 24ft sailboat that tops out at 5knots.

My wife (now ex) "accidentally" hit full throttle forward instead of "a little reverse" while maneuvering in our marina. T-boned our neighbour with our Tanzer 22. Fenders were sqeezed, but not even a scratch on the boats....at least none that I could find among all the other scratches.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by hamburking

My wife (now ex) "accidentally" hit full throttle forward instead of "a little reverse" while maneuvering in our marina. T-boned our neighbour with our Tanzer 22. Fenders were sqeezed, but not even a scratch on the boats....at least none that I could find among all the other scratches.

Thats exactly my point. I bet your boat had a lot more power than mine did the 24 used a 4hp merc in a lazzerette well .

[atmartin]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Here is your data:

You cruise into a nice anchorage, set your anchor and go ashore in your dinghy. While you are gone, your anchor breaks loose and your boat drifts towards another boat. The guy in the other boat tries to fend off your drifting boat but in the process, his arm is crushed. He not only needs $20K in surgery, but he worked as a piano player so now he is out of work and may never be able to work as a piano player again. He cannot support his pregnant wife and two children.

That's not data, it's a story. A fictional one.

The world is complicated enough without hypotheticals.

Why not try an argument along the lines of: "If you can afford a pleasure boat, even a humble one, you can usually afford some kind of liability insurance. If you sail in a region where liability insurance is common, such as the US, you have an obligation to join the pool of insured. Otherwise, you are in a position where you benefit from the insurance of others, but remain a threat to them."

That's a straightforward ethical argument, it might work on some people.

Instead your hypothetical scenarios appeal to rational self-interest, along the lines of "you are foolish not to have insurance because a single incident could destroy your life". Mike presented USCG data showing the likelihood of such incidents to be very low. In addition, insurance companies must agree as they charge very little ($130/year for my boat) for liability. So as far as rational self-interest is concerned, it makes more sense for me to be a freeloader and save the $130/year.

So perhaps you're the fool? And the uninsured are (clever) deadbeats?

[DumnMad]

Latest figure 2013; 34,000 killed in road accidents in the US in one year. Pracically one 9/11 Tradecentre every month. Insurance didn't stop them getting killed or the countless others getting permanently maimed.

Insurance for self protection is over-rated.

Observing COLREGS, knowing your boat, and best mooring practice

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Here is your data:

You cruise into a nice anchorage, set your anchor and go ashore in your dinghy. While you are gone, your anchor breaks loose and your boat drifts towards another boat. The guy in the other boat tries to fend off your drifting boat but in the process, his arm is crushed. He not only needs $20K in surgery, but he worked as a piano player so now he is out of work and may never be able to work as a piano player again. He cannot support his pregnant wife and two children.

Will you be able to write that check?

At this point, that $100 per year for liability insurance is beginning to look pretty good isn't it?

One problem for me with the above scenario is that even one's own insurance won't cover that hypothetical injured pro pianist's costs. The surgeries alone would be far in excess of a mere $20k, plus the potential loss of the arm, post multiple surgeries, plus the suffering, and the loss of career. He is free to sue you above and beyond your insurance.

You can't have enough insurance at the same time as you can have too much insurance: it is a great irony of modern life.

Ann

PS. I am not against insurance, not at all. But, like many things in this world, it is an arena into which one should enter with maximum awareness.

[olaf hart]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Here is your data:

You cruise into a nice anchorage, set your anchor and go ashore in your dinghy. While you are gone, your anchor breaks loose and your boat drifts towards another boat. The guy in the other boat tries to fend off your drifting boat but in the process, his arm is crushed. He not only needs $20K in surgery, but he worked as a piano player so now he is out of work and may never be able to work as a piano player again. He cannot support his pregnant wife and two children.

Will you be able to write that check?

At this point, that $100 per year for liability insurance is beginning to look pretty good isn't it?

So, what if it is $500 a year for a 24 foot sailboat? That's closer to the mark round here...

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

... Observing COLREGS, knowing your boat, and best mooring practice

Yes, spend some money on good anchors (best insurance available IMO); next we have to decide on a suitable drogue/sea anchor - will search CF for ideas (I just had a friendly argument over which is safer, Jordan drogue or para anchor, and, both of us having read DDDB from cover to cover, it seems we have reached diametrically opposite conclusions) as that's for another thread.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by newhaul

:............ Becides how much damage can I cause with a 24ft sailboat that tops out at 5knots.

You take a friend out sailing, he gets hit in the head by a swinging boom, falls overboard and drowns. His widow sues you for a million dollars (or more).

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

One problem for me with the above scenario is that even one's own insurance won't cover that hypothetical injured pro pianist's costs. The surgeries alone would be far in excess of a mere $20k, plus the potential loss of the arm, post multiple surgeries, plus the suffering, and the loss of career. He is free to sue you above and beyond your insurance.

You can't have enough insurance at the same time as you can have too much insurance: it is a great irony of modern life.

Ann

PS. I am not against insurance, not at all. But, like many things in this world, it is an arena into which one should enter with maximum awareness.

I just picked the $20K out of thin air for an example. You are correct, it could be far more. And it didn't have to be a piano player, it could have been most any job or career.

It puzzles me that so many individuals here cannot imagine an event like this without actually seeing it or reading about it.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You take a friend out sailing, he gets hit in the head by a swinging boom, falls overboard and drowns. His widow sues you for a million dollars (or more).

I carry insurance but your scenario has an extremely remote probability for several reasons.
First my boom doesnt swing wildly so as to hit someone in the head and cause a man overboard issue.
Secondly (and I'm a real hard a&$ on this one) if the boat isn't at the dock or anchored everyone must wear a lifejacket when on deck. No exceptions.