Marine insurance, going naked.

[olaf hart]

Originally Posted by Ambler

Perhaps we need a "not for profit" world wide organisation or another way of putting it, a commune where we can take out a liability only cover for a reasonable price. Any profits are given back after perhaps the first 2 years of cover, as a yearly discount off the premium.

Perhaps Cruisers Forum could offer it up? After all we already spread the love around in offerig advice etc to our fellow members!

Crowdfunding?

[NevisDog]

A bit off-the-wall, but if we banned any form of insurance, wouldn't folks take greater care? I'm told the safest car in the world is one with a deadly spike projecting from the centre of the steering wheel - focuses the driver's mind. I feel the same about driving without insurance - darn I'm sooooo careful. None of my cars had airbags!

[hafa]

Originally Posted by Ambler

Perhaps we need a "not for profit" world wide organisation or another way of putting it, a commune where we can take out a liability only cover for a reasonable price. Any profits are given back after perhaps the first 2 years of cover, as a yearly discount off the premium.

Perhaps Cruisers Forum could offer it up? After all we already spread the love around in offerig advice etc to our fellow members!

Interesting concept; kind of like a credit union for insurance. The international aspect would likely be the most significant hurdle, due to differing or lack of laws and regulations.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

A bit off-the-wall, but if we banned any form of insurance, wouldn't folks take greater care? I'm told the safest car in the world is one with a deadly spike projecting from the centre of the steering wheel - focuses the driver's mind. I feel the same about driving without insurance - darn I'm sooooo careful. None of my cars had airbags!

I think it should be regulated that all insurance companies should have 30% deductible to increase care with the 70% payout to mitigate disaster.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

The thing is, I agree absolutely with Rwidman so far as USA is concerned. I'd be scared to death to visit there without both health and liability insurance. We are not so far apart in our world view, except maybe I've been a few other places where things are very, very, very different, and then some not so different. The one point where we disagree is that we can call someone a 'fool' for being different - a few of us strongly object to that sort of sentiment. Life is full of people we disagree with, and I don't have any problem with that, not until they force their views on me.

Agreed, on all counts, especially the later.

As a Canadian we do travel in the USA (a wonderful country, BTW!). When doing so we always carry additional health insurance. And if I sail through there I would carry additional liability coverage. It’s a different world down there compared to just about any other developed nation.

Originally Posted by Ambler

Perhaps we need a "not for profit" world wide organisation or another way of putting it, a commune where we can take out a liability only cover for a reasonable price. Any profits are given back after perhaps the first 2 years of cover, as a yearly discount off the premium.

Of course you’ve hit on the exact origin of insurance. It is a way to pool the cost of risk so that no one person is destroyed by an unfortunate event. The idea is as old as community itself, and through most of history (and to the day) it’s not just about financial risk. People come together to assist others of their community all the time and for all reasons, big or small.

The ‘problem’, if I can put it this way, is that private finance and ownership has once again taken over what used to be a public good. And just like with health insurance, this adds on a demand for profit that has led to distortions in what was once a perfectly sound public good.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

I think it should be regulated that all insurance companies should have 30% deductible to increase care with the 70% payout to mitigate disaster.

Friend of mine had full liability cover - expensive, as he ran a commercial sail-training yacht (a beautiful, traditional gaff ketch, but that's not relevant). After twenty years of accident-free, no claims, finally he said to his insurance company rep, 'How about a discount for zero claims?' Immediate reply: 'OK, you can have a 50% discount.' Instead of being grateful, my friend felt he had been over-charged for all those past years. I agree. With insurance, it's the skilled, careful, conscientious ones that lose out, paying premiums for all the accidents caused by the careless, unskilled, ill-equipped, unprepared... luck rarely comes into it.

[lateral]

I have full cover, only because after 10yrs building, losing it would to be just
unthinkable.
I will probably ratchet back to third party cover as soon as I'm comfortable.

What do ppl do to get into marinas or haul outs without third party?
Use the grid?
That could be tedious.
IMO, third party should be compulsory on cars.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by lateral

What do ppl do to get into marinas or haul outs without third party?

There's no requirement for, nor anyone selling, pleasure craft insurance anywhere in Micronesia; there's also no haul outs; only big cranes here and on Guam. I think they have a crane in Pohnpei as well.

My excursions are all in Micronesia; it's a big enough area to explore for me. If I were ever to sail to the "developed world", I'd get the requisite insurance for the area as required upon arrival, or in advance, if possible.

[Zven]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The ‘problem’, if I can put it this way, is that private finance and ownership has once again taken over what used to be a public good. And just like with health insurance, this adds on a demand for profit that has led to distortions in what was once a perfectly sound public good.

We are touching on politics here... but I'll take on the task to respectfully disagree with this part.

There are cooperative insurance companies, just like there are cooperative banks, cooperative supermarkets and even cooperative funeral directors... all run on a non-profit-making basis.

Especially the UK has a proud tradition of this. Cooperative organizations can also be found in Scandinavia, Canada and other places. Some even offer maritime insurance.

With a few notable exceptions, these organizations have not been "taken over" ... It's just that they are not especially good.

Most customers prefer commercial alternatives, which tend to come up with better products and/or lower prices.

Here is an example of what I guess is a cooperative insurer:
https://www.cooperators.ca/en/About-Us.aspx

What is more - the whole thing is self-regulating. The beauty of a (mostly) free economy is, if you are not happy with the current state of affairs and think you can do better, there is always the option to get together with some like-minded people and start your own insurer, or supermarket, or any other operation - for profit or not.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Zven

...There are cooperative insurance companies, ...
With a few notable exceptions, these organizations have not been "taken over" ... It's just that they are not especially good...

In the case of the UK, that is simply not true. In London I worked for a top Scottish 'mutual' (ie, owned by its policyholders). It's only real competition was from other mutual life companies. They were far and away the best in the market. Then gradually they were all taken over; now they are just also-rans.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Zven

We are touching on politics here... but I'll take on the task to respectfully disagree with this part.

There are cooperative insurance companies, just like there are cooperative banks, cooperative supermarkets and even cooperative funeral directors... all run on a non-profit-making basis.

Especially the UK has a proud tradition of this. Cooperative organizations can also be found in Scandinavia, Canada and other places. Some even offer maritime insurance.

With a few notable exceptions, these organizations have not been "taken over" ... It's just that they are not especially good.

Most customers prefer commercial alternatives, which tend to come up with better products and/or lower prices.

Here is an example of what I guess is a cooperative insurer:
https://www.cooperators.ca/en/About-Us.aspx

What is more - the whole thing is self-regulating. The beauty of a (mostly) free economy is, if you are not happy with the current state of affairs and think you can do better, there is always the option to get together with some like-minded people and start your own insurer, or supermarket, or any other operation - for profit or not.

Thanks Zven, but I didn’t say publicly-run organizations are all dead. I just pointed out that insurance, which grew organically out of the need to pool risk, has largely been privatized, much like so much of what was once in the public sphere. I also made no comment about the benefits of privatized organizations vs public. My only comment was that privatization produces an added financial demand called the need for profit, which public services do not. This demand can distort a market such that it may primarily serve the needs of the corporate owners, and not the customers (case in point: American health insurance system). But obviously privatization can also bring many benefits to the market as well. Like most things in life, it’s not a simple binary ‘good' or ‘bad' thing.

I’m sure many other more socialized countries do a better job in this area than we do here in North America. In my direct experience in being a client of the Co-operators, I can tell you they sure didn’t feel any different than any other insurance company. Although I’m happy to see their corporate claims. I love credit unions (I’ve banked with one for decades), although here too my observation is that as they get bigger, they become like all the rest.

[dwedeking2]

I'm with Mike's point of view that an insurance purchase requires a risk/cost analysis.

I typically carry liability only coverage as the cost is low and the risk is low. The amounts stated in the policy only cover so much.

The fact that I'm in the US and primarily in a marina weighs heavily into that decision. When I retire and will not be in such close proximity to people, boats or traffic the risk will probably be too low to support the cost.

Hull value insurance is too costly for the value of my boat.

I do see instances where having insurance affects peoples decisions. In hurricanes I strip my decks of anything not bolted down. I've overheard the "not worried I've got insurance to cover all the canvas work".

[lifemiles]

I think rwidman's boat HIGH COTTON should be renamed to HIGH HORSE.....

truth is many boaters stay away from US waters because of crazy regulations.
also, I am not a bum, or foolish, but I end to buy boats that are "extravagant"

my 1958 Motorsailor was uninsureable. surveyors deemed it technicaly not up to standard so insurers wouldn't accept it.
yet this boat has sailed since 1958 so there must have been something good about it ?

did I use extreme caution sailing this boat ? you betcha. it was a 85 ton battering ram for other boats and I was welllllll aware of that.

currently I have a 1982 superyacht, 300 tons of steel, no insurance company will touch it unless I take comprehensive. it has passed all safety inspections and surveys but still I can't get liability only.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by lifemiles

...currently I have a 1982 superyacht, 300 tons of steel, no insurance company will touch it unless I take comprehensive. it has passed all safety inspections and surveys but still I can't get liability only.

A new thread just started up about looking for liability-only insurance. You might want to check in here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ce-190748.html

Some helpful responses have already come forward (most people here on CF are good, helpful folk). I also linked a couple of survey reports I did a few months ago on what people are actually paying for their boat insurance. I asked for insurer and broker names, so there might be something useful there for you.

[Wotname]

It seems to me that those who advocate "the uninsured are irresponsible" are also irresponsible. They pay someone else to care care of their "responsibilities" rather than do it themselves.