Need a GREAT Insurance Broker

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

Yes, of course.... ANY deficiency can cause the boat to sink.

Tiny cracks in the gel-coat on deck? The captain see's it, has a heart attack and falls overboard where he dies, the boat continues ahead, runs aground and sinks.

So sure, you can construe literally anything as an unacceptable risk to the boat. But if insurance underwriters do this - only brand spanking new never used once boats would be insurable and even most of those would fail the test.

The bigger point is that the surveyor very clearly noted 2 distinct types of issues in the survey. First, "Essential Repairs" and then "Recommendations". The latter category clearly is meant to indicate prudent maintenance measures for any newly purchased used boat. Things it would be smart to do. NOT things that represent an imminent risk to the boat. But the underwriter makes no distinction at all between these. They require literally anything noted on the survey to be corrected prior to closing. This is what makes no sense and has me seeking other insurance options.

As to the other poster who just could not resist making the inevitable elitist snarky comment about never financing a boat.... how about you manage YOUR finances and I will manage mine. I hope you got the little ego boost you sought.

What some surveyor thinks about “essential” vs. “recommended” has no bearing on what an underwriter thinks. I wouldn’t take what a surveyor says as any indication of insurability. Whether it “makes sense” to you as a guy asking a company to underwrite liability is naive.

Regardless, it sounds like you may have to alter your perspective of how to view your dilemma.

[john61ct]

I think there would not be an ethical conflict if you asked for only one formal written report, including only the "must-fix for safety" items for insurance purposes.

The non-safety "less critical items" to be used for leverage with the seller, as a separate bulleted list

All in order of estimated cost to fix

With the routine recommendations at the bottom

Personally, I would not be negotiating for the buyer to get any items fixed, but a reduction in the sale price, for me to better be able to afford getting them done right, or doing what I can myself over time.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I think there would not be an ethical conflict if you asked for only one formal written report, including only the "must-fix for safety" items for insurance purposes.

The non-safety "less critical items" to be used for leverage with the seller, as a separate bulleted list

All in order of estimated cost to fix

With the routine recommendations at the bottom

Personally, I would not be negotiating for the buyer to get any items fixed, but a reduction in the sale price, for me to better be able to afford getting them done right, or doing what I can myself over time.

Therein lies the problem underwriters have which many boat buyers fail to understand.

New owners don’t fix things, don’t always fix things well or correctly, they aren’t often objective when determining what is a “safety issue” and they often don’t care once they obtain insurance leaving the underwriter liable for their carelessness, negligence, etc..

[john61ct]

Which is the mirror issue for buyers, when underwriters block a sale with over-zealous picayune demands that do not relate to the immediate safety need.

Getting the boat into your possession, perhaps just to park in a marina for now or even up onto the hard in a yard, is not the same as setting off into the blue yonder.

Seems to me a good surveyor, who deserves to be trusted by all parties, is the one to find that right balance.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

Yes, of course.... ANY deficiency can cause the boat to sink.

Tiny cracks in the gel-coat on deck? The captain see's it, has a heart attack and falls overboard where he dies, the boat continues ahead, runs aground and sinks.

So sure, you can construe literally anything as an unacceptable risk to the boat. But if insurance underwriters do this - only brand spanking new never used once boats would be insurable and even most of those would fail the test.

The bigger point is that the surveyor very clearly noted 2 distinct types of issues in the survey. First, "Essential Repairs" and then "Recommendations". The latter category clearly is meant to indicate prudent maintenance measures for any newly purchased used boat. Things it would be smart to do. NOT things that represent an imminent risk to the boat. But the underwriter makes no distinction at all between these. They require literally anything noted on the survey to be corrected prior to closing. This is what makes no sense and has me seeking other insurance options.

As to the other poster who just could not resist making the inevitable elitist snarky comment about never financing a boat.... how about you manage YOUR finances and I will manage mine. I hope you got the little ego boost you sought.

The insurance company requires a third party to survey the boat before they will write insurance. They have apperently stated that they will underwrite insurance with all survey recommendations completed or as a Port Risk only policy. I can't see how you can ask for more than that. It gives you the choice of how you deal with the purchase.

As far as seperating the survey recommendations into what you consider imminent risk or not, why should the underwriter want to get into that level of distinction? They are insuring against all risks. The damage that they have to pay out for is all low risk. They don't write policies for high risk, they walk away from them.

As far as the gel coat cracks issue you brought up, is this a recommendation to fix by the surveyor that the insurance company has said needs to be fixed, or is it an aside that has nothing to do with getting this insurance.

[hellosailor]

If the OP is in the US, try calling IMIS. By now I expect Al Golden, founder, may have retired. All professionals, nothing online but praise since before there was an internet. No magical promises, just adults who will tell you what you are or aren't getting in a policy, and dealing only with reputable carriers.

[Carver Power]

I think you should bow out, To many problems to soon. I made a similar mistake and cost me thousands.

[tarian]

There is the option of getting the Owner to do the repairs and then get a more upto date survey then the Insurance company will will have an uptodate survey and it should show no issues
I have got a 1979 year old boat fully insured , with a recent survey and pictures of the boat , no isses what so ever , but this is a UK insurance company
Good luck

[Sailor647]

You might have luck with Gowrie Group. Rachel is a true professional and has ALWAYS answered our questions promptly via email or phone.

We have been dealing with Gowie Group through Rachel since 2013. Our boat wasn't financed, but we had a huge list of things to fix (some safety, some maintenance) - based on the buyer's survey completed for the sale before they would insure it.

We had to send digital photos as proof of the completed work and have a follow-up survey to prove the work was complete before Markel would write the policy that covered the boat in the Pacific and Mexico. You may be able to get an interim liability policy while you are doing the work that may satisfy the bank.

If anyone can help you in your situation, these folks can.

Rachel Sloan
Jackline Account Manager
rachel.imis@gowrie.com
p: 410.364.7707
f: 410.827.3758

International Marine Insurance Services by Gowrie Group
522 Chesapeake Ave, Annapolis, MD 21403
www.gowrie.com/imis

They will work with you regardless of location. Our boat was in Washington and Oregon, and now in Mexico.

Best of luck!

[Sailor647]

Originally Posted by two-rocks

The seller will do things as cheap as possible, having already deferred doing so in the first place. Adjust the price and have it done on your own or by you. Or agree that you will manage the necessary items, he pays, you buy. Get it in writing.

Yep. Agree with this.

[sailingchiro]

I don't know if this will help but will discuss my history.

We purchased a boat that needed alot of work. Mast, rigging, motors, electronics, fiberglass work, etc. Seaworthy (Geico) insured the boat for Port only(no moving) until all the work was done.

Once it was completed and re-surveyed for the items on the list only (abbreviated survey-I think it cost $150), the boat was insured to Atlantic, Gulf of Mexico, and Caribbean. Of course we moved the boat to a marina to have it hauled for repairs but had to do without insurance.

Your dilemma is the loan vs. insurance. Without the insurance, no loan and visa versa. Try asking for port insurance only until proof of repairs.

[Sir_Crabs_A_Lot]

Good luck with your insurance problems.

I have a 25 ft steamboat. Nobody, but NOBODY, will insure a steamboat. My insurance broker gave up after 14 underwriters turned me down.

Ryan

[ocean.jedi]

William J Coates
wjc@offshorerisk.com

Offshore Risk Management
Insurance Intermediaries & Services Worldwide
http://www.offshorerisk.com/
305 743 7711 USA
800 773 0105 Toll free US, Canada and US Territories
284 494 8925 Caribbean
661 310 3612 Pacific
+44 (0) 203 371 9167 UK
408 228 8937 Fax
760 875 9772 Fax alternate

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by RickG

I was happy with Jack Martin in Annapolis with insurance through Markel. I would still be with them, but Markel is not writing policies for the Caribbean.

When we bought our current boat there were issues that need to be addressed (below water thru hulls, etc.) that had to be addressed before the boat was splashed to comply with insurance. I provided vendor receipts for the work as proof of compliance.

Cheers, RickG

I just used Morgan Wells at Jack Martin to insure my new boat, a 1999 Catalina 470. There were some issues with the boat, and they gave me 30 days to remedy them, once I specifically requested it. Guess it depends on the insurance company, and the extent of the issues. In my case there were only a few relatively minor safety issues. I have a much longer list of issues that I'm going to remedy myself, including replacing the 20-year old standing rigging, but my insurance did not demand that.

Regards,
David

[tmccaffery]

I second the recommendation for Morgan Wells. We are working with him right now. Very knowledgeable, has been in the yacht insurance business quite a while and is a sailor. He is located in MD and so is local to where your boat is.