Only Six Months -- Feeling Cramped

[JPA Cate]

Mike,

I'm really glad that Jim has put radar on our cruising boats. It isn't perfect, by any means (though Dockhead says the newest ones are better than our old one), but what they can do that is helpful if you're cruising the South Pacific, is show at night when you can't see, where the break on a reef is, or the opening, though I would not recommend going in till the sun"s well up. It can show you squalls coming, and the heaviness of the rainfall in them, and that's useful as an indicatior of how much wind you may find in it; this warning comes in time to drop sail, so I think that's very useful. Often you'll have a 360 change of wind directions with a squall--it's good to be prepared. Finally, although not all boats show up well on radar, the big ships do, and any steel vessel without anechoic coatings does, too. I felt naked at sea when we were between radars. And we did have AIS. It's just not the same. Now, in fog, they excel. A little story actually, ourselves southbound towards Auckland, NZ, and a train of one big powerboat with radar leading 4 other "blind" boats at hull speed through fog one Christmas time, northbound. We moved offshore about 3 mi, to avoid such elephant trains.

They can't see all the time, as through heavy rainfall, and they don't pick up timber boats well either, but I am very glad to have one.

My two cents.

Ann

[Zai]

I am also a big proponant of radar, my first radar was a Deca 050 and it could pick up crab floats and breaking waves if tuned properly.
Navigating the Norwegian coast in the winter, invaluable tool!

Of course the most important resource is ourselves, but an extra tool such as a radar is very usefull IMO.

[sully75]

I'm in the same boat. Npi. I just decided I'm going to keep sailing her until I get something else (sailing is better than not sailing and she's a pretty fine little boat). But I'm going to stop putting money into her. Her resale value is pretty low. Or if I do buy stuff, it will be stuff I can move to a different boat (electronics).

I'm planning on a trip next summer and then a year or two on land buying and working on my next and last boat. Whatever she may be.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Mike OReilly]

I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I do want to thank those who've chimed in on the radar question. Ann's observations of usage are particularly helpful for me as we struggle with the cost-benefit analysis.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled banter...

[Ex-Calif]

Great post Anne. Nice summary of the radar decision...

I certainly think if you've added everything else and have the bucks it's worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Mike,

I'm really glad that Jim has put radar on our cruising boats. It isn't perfect, by any means (though Dockhead says the newest ones are better than our old one), but what they can do that is helpful if you're cruising the South Pacific, is show at night when you can't see, where the break on a reef is, or the opening, though I would not recommend going in till the sun"s well up. It can show you squalls coming, and the heaviness of the rainfall in them, and that's useful as an indicatior of how much wind you may find in it; this warning comes in time to drop sail, so I think that's very useful. Often you'll have a 360 change of wind directions with a squall--it's good to be prepared. Finally, although not all boats show up well on radar, the big ships do, and any steel vessel without anechoic coatings does, too. I felt naked at sea when we were between radars. And we did have AIS. It's just not the same. Now, in fog, they excel. A little story actually, ourselves southbound towards Auckland, NZ, and a train of one big powerboat with radar leading 4 other "blind" boats at hull speed through fog one Christmas time, northbound. We moved offshore about 3 mi, to avoid such elephant trains.

They can't see all the time, as through heavy rainfall, and they don't pick up timber boats well either, but I am very glad to have one.

My two cents.

Ann

[onestepcsy37]

Radar. May depend on when/where you are sailing. In Florida/Bahamas I've never been in a situation where I thought it might be useful. The only time I've ever seen it used was in a race across the gulfstream during a bad storm. Although there were 15 other boats crossing with us the captain couldn't find a single one on the radar screen.

[onestepcsy37]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Oh lets not start on insurance. It's clearly NOT worth it. That's how insurance companies make their money, don't ya know.

Mike, we think so much alike; hope we meet up some day. After the insurance company doubled my premium I dropped it. Nine years later I've saved nearly $20,000. I did spend some of that money on bigger better anchors and chain. Now thats REAL insurance.

[JPA Cate]

Onestep37,

A big rainstorm will give you too many returns, and "blind" your radar; also, fiberglass boats without radar reflectors are poor targets.

We got hooked on having radar in San Francisco Bay, where there are hazards the fog made invisible, long before chart plotting was on our financial horizon.

We sailed without insurance for about 25 yrs., until we had to carry 3rd party coverage to be allowed in marinas (for those rare occasions) and for the haulout facilities. We, too bought anchors, chain, and indeed, the radar, with our savings. Your post brought back a lot of memories.

When we were dismasted in '96, even after buying the new mast, rigging, running rigging, repairing the bow pulpit and replacing the lifelines, radar, and vhf coax and antenna, and the instruments, it was still a huge savings over boat insurance for a boat with only two crew--and even that was not available when we left in 1986. We left again in 1989 (long story), and by then, Pantaneous (sp?) was the only one offering ins for offshore.

Totally agree about insurance. The company is not there to help you, it is there to make money for the stockholders.

Again, relative to cruising in the South Pacific, i like knowing just exactly how far off the land I am, whether it is an atoll, on offshore reef, or just to tuck in in the shallow water out of the south setting tidal flow. My radar lets me stay a safe distance off the rocks and outside the break. YMMV I will say, though, that if I hadn't tried it, I would not have discovered how much help it could be.

Cheers,

Ann

[yttrill]

Well I am cruising East Coast Australia. I have a poor heading sensor. Radar has two uses (since fog isn't an issue here): detecting rain, and finding the distance of fishing boats at night that you can see but have no idea how close they are. Although my radar "sees" 50 miles, the MARPA cannot track a small vessel in poor conditions unless it's very close (5 miles or less). Tracking cargo ships is pointless since they all carry AIS.

I'm glad I have a radar, but AIS is vastly more useful. My radar might be more useful if I got a proper heading sensor so the MARPA could calculate the target heading and thus give a better idea of the CPA.

So if you want a really good radar system .. you really need to consider spending twice the price of the radar itself on a good heading sensor. Radars are cheap. Good heading sensors are not. If you're yawing about all over the place the heading sensor must precisely synchronise at high speed with the radar rotation. MARPA requires sub-degree accuracy to be any use at prediction of direction and speed. A visual trace of contact position and human estimation based on that is probably more useful.

[onestepcsy37]

Ann, there are for sure many places where radar is indispensible. Your situation sounds like one. We, OTOH, dont experience fog, long lasting rainstorms, or even darkness. We mostly daysail from one anchorage to the next and have the luxury of being able to stay put if bad weather threatens. You two are obviously more accomplished sailors than we two. But hopefully we both each love and are happy with what we are doing.....

[JPA Cate]

Yes, onestepcsy37, quite right. I agree. Furthermore, if you don't need--or want--it, don't let anyone bully you into it.

I like our AIS, too. But if I had to choose, I'd take the radar. I agree with yttrril, too, it can be very difficult with the fishing boats, mainly because their working lights are so bright that you cannot pick out their nav lights from all the other light noise. So the radar can be a good help, AND you have to keep watching them because you cannot predict what direction changes they will make at any time.

Ann

[yttrill]

FYI: Radar works by timing how long it takes for the radio pulses it sends out at a particular angle take to return. These pulses need to be highly directional. Most recreational radar units come in a dome and have a small transmitter surface and so do not produce a very directional signal.

A real radar system uses an open array, the longer the array is, the more focused (directional) the radar pulse is, and so the more accurate the radar system. Here, most fishing boats, even small ones, rely on radar, and use open arrays.

Open array units are more expensive and not very good on sailing boats where ropes can get entangled with the array. Consequently, most recreational radars suitable for sail boats use a dome and hence aren't very good.

However fairly recently several techniques to improve the situation were commercialised. If the radar sends out more pulses per second you can get more precise information if the beam is tight. If the beam is not tight, the radar might get confused (you'd get a phantom image).

So these newer radar systems use variable frequencies instead. That way they can tell from the frequency of the return signal where the radar was pointed when it transmitted. This also reduces the power consumption of the radar required considerably.

I have no idea how good the new system is but it might be worth investigating if you're either sailing, or you can't afford an open array radar.

A final note: in the old days, radar relied on a very long persistence phosphor green screen to work. The physical persistence of the phosphor itself, the ability for it to keep glowing for a long time, is what made radar work by providing a "memory" of the return pulses. Modern radars use software and memory to do this instead. Consequently, high speed pattern recognition is used for things like rain and sea clutter rejection, instead of tuning analogue equipment. This can be very effective but it depends heavily on the quality of the software and the digital processing electronics. Tuning and using such software based radars is a black art. It takes a lot of practice, just as it did in the old days, to get the best out of your radar. So if you buy a radar, practice with it regularly!

[Steadman Uhlich]

RADAR?
It took just ONE time sailing close off the rugged California coast at night (no lights on shore) in fog so thick one could barely see the bow of the boat (no exaggeration), to give me unshaken admiration for RADAR and good hearing.

While many people will never experience sailing in that kind of thick fog and hazard, it only takes one time to convince you that the RADAR is essential in some locations.

I am glad that Ann and others mentioned the other uses too (e.g. tracking squalls). I have seen many smaller offshore fishing boats without AIS, that were visible on RADAR. And, it helped warn us of an approaching RORO Car Carrier that quickly came up over the Horizon (they move very fast when going across the ocean) and passed close to our boat's track.

[barnakiel]

We too would go radar if our sailing area called for one. In fact, I may be getting one even though we are sailing mostly in between the tropics.

My few comments are as follows:

- get a new gen one: dramatically better close-in resolution, vastly lower consumption,

- squalls can be visible, IF they carry plenty of rain; when the radar is clear, do not assume there are no squalls coming, watch the clouds,

- take a radar course and exercise fine tuning: for the sea state and for rain, few sailors do,

- try to get a tilting, even better a gimballed mount, they rock.

Fair winds,
b.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

We too would go radar if our sailing area called for one. In fact, I may be getting one even though we are sailing mostly in between the tropics.

My few comments are as follows:

- get a new gen one: dramatically better close-in resolution, vastly lower consumption,

- squalls can be visible, IF they carry plenty of rain; when the radar is clear, do not assume there are no squalls coming, watch the clouds,


Good one, barnakiel! Quite right. You cannot "see" clear air squalls on radar. I was not clear in what I wrote.

- take a radar course and exercise fine tuning: for the sea state and for rain, few sailors do,

or download one of the tutorials, they are quite useful, especially after you've already got the basics of your particular unit understood.


- try to get a tilting, even better a gimballed mount, they rock.

Fair winds,
b.

interesting thread drift, eh?
Ann