Proving title and VAT status without original invoice

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by terah

Well just to further complicate things it is registered on the Dutch Kadaster, but have already requested the extracts from there to see what is listed.



I've started another thread (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ce-196271.html) specifically about the title/vat issues. They say they will get a T2L but I'm not sure how much weight that has in proving VAT paid.

The Dutch Ships registry 'Scheeps Kadaster' is one of the (the ?) most thorough registrations for ships and yachts . Everything is registered there from Mortages , Liens and possibly the VAT status as well


One of the biggest pro's is that you can leave it registered there , also as a non-Dutch national . so you will have a lot of benefits if its already registered there and it should be absolutely no problem keeping it registered and sail with a Dutch flag and registration

[wolfgal]

Hi,

I'm not expert and may have missed something that you wrote about the problem, but i'd like to know if your boat was made in Europe or if it was imported and what year.

wolfgal

[terah]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

One of the biggest pro's is that you can leave it registered there , also as a non-Dutch national . so you will have a lot of benefits if its already registered there and it should be absolutely no problem keeping it registered and sail with a Dutch flag and registration

I had automatically assumed I would re-register it on the UK SSR. Will need to see if there's any advantage to leaving it on the Dutch register.

Originally Posted by wolfgal

Hi,

I'm not expert and may have missed something that you wrote about the problem, but i'd like to know if your boat was made in Europe or if it was imported and what year.

wolfgal

It's a Jeanneau and was built in Europe in 2006. The 2nd (current) owner bought it in 2015.

[wolfgal]

now i better understand your situation:

i am wondering if i correct in saying that the proof for VAT was paid HAS TO exist somewhere... (i'm thinking of the fact that another boat maker - bent- produces boats in SC in the states.

in any case, one would think that logically it was paid, yes...

the thing is, i hear that you MUST have that proof upon buying the boat. otherwise, you are potentially liable to pay it.

Still no expert here but the good news is that, on principle, you will not need to import the boat and have it CE proofed.

apologies for not being of any substantial help

[terah]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

i am wondering if i correct in saying that the proof for VAT was paid HAS TO exist somewhere... (i'm thinking of the fact that another boat maker - bent- produces boats in SC in the states.

Well this is the crux of it. You would usually use the original invoice to demonstrate that tax was paid on that initial sale. You would then check to see if the original buyer was a private individual or a company - if it was a private individual then it is reasoable to assume the tax was paid and not reclaimed, but if it was a VAT registered company then they would have reclaimed the tax. Business to business sales could continue the tax charged/reclaimed so you really want to see the first invoice from a business to private buyer and see the amount of tax charged.

The problem I have is that original invoice is not available, and the dealer who issued it is only required to keep records for 10 years so cannot supply a copy.

Originally Posted by Rapanui

The T2L document is sufficent proof that the item can freely circulate in the EU, provided it is genuine and covers the item in question. You should not need the VAT invoice, as the T2L is acceptance by an EU countrythat they are satisfied regarding the VAT status of the item and must be accepted by other EU countries. Don't forget that boats older than 7-8 years before accession or joining the single market do not have to prove VAT status only their age which the T2L also covers.
However, I still think it would be worth going back to the boat manufacturer to see if they can produce a certified copy of the original invoice(s). A phone call or email should quickly elicit whether it is available. UK HMRC could then issue you a T2L with rock solid backup evidence. The RYA were very helpfull in issuing me a form and advice on it's completion and HMRC returned the T2L within a week.

This T2L is looking like a good solution to tax problem. I've also checked into the boat builder option but as it is Jeanneau and they operate through their dealer network I would only be able to get a copy of the builder's certificate which would just have the dealers name on it.

I'm going to look at the boat on Monday so will see what the rest of the documentation looks like.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by terah

I had automatically assumed I would re-register it on the UK SSR. Will need to see if there's any advantage to leaving it on the Dutch register.

The Dutch 'Kadaster' is similar to the UK Part 1 registration



Register your boat on the Part I register if you want to:

• prove you own the boat
• prove your boat’s nationality
• use the boat as security for a marine mortgage
• register a pleasure vessel
• get ‘transcripts of registry’, which show the boat’s previous owners and whether there are any outstanding mortgages

Your boat must have a unique name to be registered.

the SSR (part 3 registration) is much less of a registration , and basically a paper lion (much like the ICP here in NL)


I'd suggest to keep the boat registered in NL through the Kadaster as it provides irrefutable international proof of ownership and lets you fly a Dutch flag , which has some benefits (same as UK) no tax etc . And you know absolutely sure there are no liens , mortgages , 3rd party claims etc if the folks at the kadaster say the registration is clean .

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by KWISPEL

The seller can obtain by the Customs a declaretion that the TAV is paid!
If he refuse to do this, than is there a problem.
If he can gif you these documents, go than by the customs and ask if the are what you think that the are. I
If he can't give anny proof than have you to pay the VAT! ? %

Yes, that is exactly what the T2L is. A document from customs showing the tax status. I would be content with a T2L and a Bill of Sale from current owner. But also important is to make sure there are no liens on the boat.

The Bill of Sale should not include VAT if you buy from a private person, but the owner can state in it that VAT for the boat is paid and that there are no liens.

Anyhow, I do not think anybody is ever going to ask you about VAT for a boat this old.

[ReneJK]

T2L

Any EU country has the right to confirm that a boat which is entering or within the EU has the status of Union goods, as it is this status which entitles the owner to move the boat freely through the EU. In order for a boat to have the status of Union goods VAT must be accounted for and if the boat has been imported any applicable customs duty must also have been paid.
The majority of EU countries seldom conduct such checks. Where checks are made, for boats of EU-origin the VAT invoice showing the amount of VAT that was paid and that the vessel was originally purchased in the EU (and was therefore not subject to customs duty) is usually sufficient evidence of the boat’s community status. For imported boats, evidence of payment of VAT and customs duty (if any) on import is required.
A T2L document is not normally issued to boats sold new within the EU as it is designed to establish the status of Union goods for a boat which has been imported. A T2L document can be issued retrospectively by HMRC to provide evidence that the boat it relates to is of EU origin and thus establish it has the status of Union goods. A retrospectively issued T2L does not evidence that VAT has been paid on the boat.
When is a T2L needed?

If you are asked for documentary evidence that your boat has the status of Union goods when entering or cruising within the EU evidence that the VAT has been accounted for (e.g. the VAT invoice showing the amount of VAT that was paid) should be sufficient. There are however three countries which are known to occasionally request a T2L. If you are planning to take your boat to Portugal, in particular to the area under the jurisdiction of the Faro customs authority, a T2L is recommended. Owners have also occasionally been asked for a T2L in Croatia and Cyprus.
Although a T2L does not of itself prove that VAT has been paid, because a T2L is validated by HMRC it might nevertheless assist in satisfying foreign customs officials that a boat has Union status and is entitled to free movement. Boaters intending to visit EU members states other than those referred to above may therefore also wish to apply for a T2L.
How to obtain a retrospective T2L from HMRC

In order to apply retrospectively for a T2L the owner must complete a C88 (Status) form and send it with supporting evidence to HMRC. According to the information given to the RYA by HMRC, the original form (not a copy or a print out from the HMRC website) must be completed and sent to HMRC.
Assuming your application for a T2L is accepted, the form you send in is endorsed by HMRC and returned to you as your T2L.
RYA Members can request a T2L pack by emailing your name, postal address and membership number to the cruising team or by phoning 023 8060 4233. The pack contains the C88(Status) form and instructions on how to complete the form.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Anyhow, I do not think anybody is ever going to ask you about VAT for a boat this old.

ermmmm..



enter the Netherlands (Schengen 'border' country) from the Northsea and stay your 1st night in lets say Ijmuiden and chances are 60-80% you'll have customs officials visiting and they will ask for proof of VAT paid and if they have any reason to believe you have been outside of the EU VAT zone for longer than 3 years they will ask you to provide proof youve not been outside teh EU VAT zone for more than 3 years

[GTom]

provide proof you've not been outside the EU VAT zone for more than 3 years

Wow, that's steep. During the entire life of a 40 years old boat or just the past 3 years?

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by GTom

Wow, that's steep. During the entire life of a 40 years old boat or just the past 3 years?

When any EU VAT paid good leaves (is outside of) the EU for more than 3 years , its looses its EU 'VAT paid' status


So when you travel , lets say to the Carib , and are cruising around for 10 years , you better check into some of the French territories during those years and keep the receipts to maintain the EU 'VAT paid' status and be able to provide proof



(I contacted the Dutch customs about this and they confirmed that any boat outside the EU for more than 3 years looses its VAT paid status , and visiting any EU VAT area, like french territories , basically resets the 3 year clock)

[GTom]

Those French territories are not part of the EU VAT zone. Question is if a previous owner was outside the EU 10 years ago and came back unnoticed, what happens then? The authorities cannot prove that the boat hasn't entered a port in the EU VAT area in the meantime, while I bring my receipts from the past 5 years.

Legally the boat has lost its VAT status but no one can prove that.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by GTom

Those French territories are not part of the EU VAT zone.

some are ,


Areas of France:

• Guadeloupe[59] (low rate VAT)
• Martinique[59] (low rate VAT)
• Réunion[59] (low rate VAT)
• Saint Martin[59] (low rate VAT)

Originally Posted by GTom

Question is if a previous owner was outside the EU 10 years ago and came back unnoticed, what happens then? The authorities cannot prove that the boat hasn't entered a port in the EU VAT area in the meantime, while I bring my receipts from the past 5 years.

Legally the boat has lost its VAT status but no one can prove that.

if you came back unnoticed, save your receipts indeed ;-)

[MartinR]

I bought my new (used) boat in France this summer and had a little bit of the same problems. There were no original VAT receipts. I got a document, though, from the company selling the boat stating that the VAT was paid.

In the end, in the French deregistration document it says that the VAT is paid for the boat, so now there is official proof. Might be that you can get something like this from the Dutch register.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

some are ,

I don't see any French, Dutch, UK, etc overseas territories here, that are included. Not even Martinique