Proving title and VAT status without original invoice

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by GTom

I don't see any French, Dutch, UK, etc overseas territories here, that are included. Not even Martinique

I think I may have made a mistake , they are part of the EU (not EU VAT zone) so you're good


but please check with your local customs officer , dont rely on me :-)

[GTom]

Application of the law might be a little more lenient than the law itself Meaning maybe some customs officers are happy with Martinique, Canaries(!) receipts. No idea...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by KWISPEL

The seller can obtain by the Customs a declaretion that the TAV is paid!
:

UK HMRC stopped offering this service some years ago.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I would only buy the boat contingent upon the seller producing reasonable and accepted proof of the tax being paid. I expect you want "proof" that will satisfy the tax authorities in some particular country? Then I'd suggest placing the full amount of the tax into an escrow fund, to be released to you or the seller only after you have submitted their "proof" of the tax to that authority, and had it rejected or accepted. That way if the seller is sure it was paid, they lose nothing. If they can't substantiate that claim, they pay the VAT.

If you've got the time to wait for their "proof" and you can submit it in advance to find out that it will be accepted, then there's nothing for anyone to worry about.

With 28 countries in the EU there are 28 customs organisations who all have their own ideas and to add confusion their own language. So which ones does he choose and what common language to use?

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

ermmmm..

enter the Netherlands (Schengen 'border' country) from the Northsea and stay your 1st night in lets say Ijmuiden and chances are 60-80% you'll have customs officials visiting and they will ask for proof of VAT paid and if they have any reason to believe you have been outside of the EU VAT zone for longer than 3 years they will ask you to provide proof youve not been outside teh EU VAT zone for more than 3 years

Are you saying 4 in every 5 yachts entering the NL will be visited by Customs and they will ask for proof of VAT? Really? I don't believe it.

Pete

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Are you saying 4 in every 5 yachts entering the NL will be visited by Customs and they will ask for proof of VAT? Really? I don't believe it.

Pete

you shouldnt believe me but i do encourage you to ask around for yourself and not rely on info given on the inernet

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GTom

Those French territories are not part of the EU VAT zone. Question is if a previous owner was outside the EU 10 years ago and came back unnoticed, what happens then? The authorities cannot prove that the boat hasn't entered a port in the EU VAT area in the meantime, while I bring my receipts from the past 5 years.

Legally the boat has lost its VAT status but no one can prove that.

Its extremely hard for a boat to enter the EU unnoticed from the West.. unless you never entered a port/marina, but stayed on the hook wherever you sail.. and even then the marine police often visit anchorages carrying out snap inspections of papers etc.
Also.. its not the obligation of the authorities to prove that VAT has NOT been paid nor the cruising history of the vessel.. its down to you to prove it HAS.. and where you have been for the preceding years.
Contrary to popular belief.. You are Guilty until proven Innocent.

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

When any EU VAT paid good leaves (is outside of) the EU for more than 3 years , its looses its EU 'VAT paid' status


So when you travel , lets say to the Carib , and are cruising around for 10 years , you better check into some of the French territories during those years and keep the receipts to maintain the EU 'VAT paid' status and be able to provide proof



(I contacted the Dutch customs about this and they confirmed that any boat outside the EU for more than 3 years looses its VAT paid status , and visiting any EU VAT area, like french territories , basically resets the 3 year clock)

This rule always confuses me. How can you proof that your boat hasn’t been outside the VAT area for 3 years or more?

And the French, Dutch, British territories are all excluded from the VAT area.

[boatman61]

Every time you enter a marina you are logged onto a central computer base.. even if its just for water or fuel.
Its also where it pays to keep some receipts with dates from previous non EU countries.. if your heading back else you could end up being rigorously searched if coming from the Caribe/wherever and your times exceed acceptable passage times for trip.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by De.windhoos

This rule always confuses me. How can you proof that your boat hasn’t been outside the VAT area for 3 years or more?

And the French, Dutch, British territories are all excluded from the VAT area.

receipts for fuel , water , dockage , groceries

Anything really



And yes, I stated that before , that was my mistake , its not teh EU VAT zone that is leading , its the 'EU zone' that is leading , and a lot of the french territories are part of the EU (but outside the VAT zone) so you're effectively visiting the EU within the 3 years , and your clock is reset (if you keep the receipts to prove you've visited)


as with many (all ?) tax related issues, the proof lays with you to prove you comply with all the rules, not with the tax office

[hellosailor]

I would still say this is the SELLER'S problem, not the buyer's.

As far as the buyer is concerned, the VAT has not been paid unless they have proof otherwise. So the boat is worth that much less, absent the proof. If the seller wants that much more for their boat--they're just going to have to get up off their butt and supply the proof. And if they're not trying to cheat the buyer, that's what they will do. Either come up with the proof, or accept that the VAT will have to be paid again, so the boat is worth that much less.

Kinda like someone saying "I have a boat for sale" "Uh, I don't know what kind, it is somewhere down in the harbor." REALLY? Maybe it's a steal...either way.

[double u]

boatman61: "...because I'm an EU Citizen..." - they are hard at work changing that...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

you shouldnt believe me

I don't hence my question asking for proof

Originally Posted by ReneJK

but i do encourage you to ask around for yourself

I haven't the slightest intention of asking around about something that isn't true.

Originally Posted by ReneJK

and not rely on info given on the Internet

Somewhat ironic because you gave the advice.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I would still say this is the SELLER'S problem, not the buyer's.

If a problem with VAT exists at all then yes this is true.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As far as the buyer is concerned, the VAT has not been paid unless they have proof otherwise. So the boat is worth that much less, absent the proof. If the seller wants that much more for their boat--they're just going to have to get up off their butt and supply the proof. And if they're not trying to cheat the buyer, that's what they will do. Either come up with the proof, or accept that the VAT will have to be paid again, so the boat is worth that much less.

Kinda like someone saying "I have a boat for sale" "Uh, I don't know what kind, it is somewhere down in the harbor." REALLY? Maybe it's a steal...either way.

I disagree, VAT is not due on a sale of a secondhand item between two individuals in the EU. Proof of previous VAT payments on initial purchase would be nice to have but not always available. Is it a problem? not really because the new owner will have a receipt saying the boat was purchased secondhand from a private individual within the EU.

Pete

[Anders]

There are many long discussions about VAT on boat forums but I have yet to hear of anyone on forums or in real life that has had any problem because they can't show original invoice. Most VAT problems are from people that buy a boat in Turkey and eventually realizes the boat is no longer VAT paid.
My boat predates VAT, I'm supposed to be able to show that she was in the EU on a certain date, I can't and it does not worry me.
I would buy a boat a boat from a private seller in the EU even if he could not show original invoice, that would not bother me.
In both cases I would want a receipt identifying the seller and showing a location that is in the EU, a proof like a marina receipt would not hurt but is not essential.

[GTom]

Just run into an offer from the UK, where neither all bills of sale nor the original builder's certificate are available. Here VAT would be my least concern, much worse if hidden owners, lenders might pop up, out of nowhere. I just can't understand why would people throw away the birth certificates of a once 100k+ investment, knowing that these pieces of paper are the only documentation of their title.