The Market Has Turned

[twhite]

Since so much of boat buying depends on Bank financing, and since banks typically demand that the boats be an A1 shape, I I think that any boat that falls outside of their guidelines, will probably go for very cheap. That is to say, the ones that are not a brand name, the fixer-upper's, or just the older boats will be available only for cash. And that's where I'm at, at some point we're going to start looking for a cruising class vessel.

Now they say that time equals money, and that's pretty much true as far as I can see. So if you have a lot of time, he should be able to find something it needs more or less work, and come out ahead. And if you have a lot of money, you can jump right in. So you think that with all the unemployment, that a lot of people would be getting fixer-upper's, what with all the time on their hands. But it doesn't really work out that way, it actually takes more time to be unemployed, then it does if you have a job. So I think that those boats are going to languish, and probably still go down in price.

I've seen what looks like fairly good deals on Craig's list. I've only been keeping track of these things for about six months now, but I remember it used to be that everything that what went through a broker was just skyhigh, same as going to a new car dealer. The real bargains were always one on one.

Keep hope, Tom

[Tom1340]

Since Sandy first posted this thread, all but one of the the cruising boats I've looked at are still on the market, and their BUC values have all fallen since last December. The two boats I like most (both about 40 ft, and 10 to 15 years old) have decreased 3 percent in value in the last month alone, according to BUC Value. I suppose a prospective buyer should be happy about this, but it makes it difficult to pull the trigger.

[hellosailor]

Three percent? You've got to be kidding. BUC is gonna depreciate 'em as they get older, and three percent is just the question of whether the boat was washed and waxed in the last 90 days.

You want the boat? Make an offer and buy the boat for whatever you're willing to pay. Worst they'll do is laugh at you and sell it to someone else.

[Kettlewell]

I'm sure the original poster was sincere, but I have to wonder a bit about the constant drum beat in the boating publications that the market has turned, and then buried a few paragraphs down you might find the actual statistics indicating that sales are still declining and prices are the pits. I've been reading the same thing with regard to real estate for about a year now, but the evidence on the ground isn't really there.

Boat prices are highly volatile and the BUC guide should only be looked at as a very rough estimate--not like cars at all--and it is usually very high. Plus, prices in different parts of the country vary hugely. There is a big difference on the same boat between New England, Florida, and California.

Shop around, make an offer, and remember it is a buyer's market right now.

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I'm sure the original poster was sincere, but I have to wonder a bit about the constant drum beat in the boating publications that the market has turned, and then buried a few paragraphs down you might find the actual statistics indicating that sales are still declining and prices are the pits. I've been reading the same thing with regard to real estate for about a year now, but the evidence on the ground isn't really there.

Boat prices are highly volatile and the BUC guide should only be looked at as a very rough estimate--not like cars at all--and it is usually very high. Plus, prices in different parts of the country vary hugely. There is a big difference on the same boat between New England, Florida, and California.

Shop around, make an offer, and remember it is a buyer's market right now.

I'm looking at coming to the USA fairly soon to look for a boat as a permanent livaboard. It would be helpful to know where to concentrate my efforts... ie. where would you consider the market to be most affected by the down turn?
I've had California and Florida in mind because that is where a lot of the boats on Yachtworld seem to be located, but I believe Annapolis is a big sailboat hub too. I've also heard there are some places in the Caribbean with a high number of boats for sale... possibly Trinidad?

Any comments and opinions would be very helpful.

Vic

[Kettlewell]

I have never boat shopped on the West Coast, but there are quite a few great looking long-distance cruisers listed out there on YachtWorld at favorable prices. One thing to keep in mind is that if you start in California or Washington you either have to work your way down to Mexico and then across the Pacific, or just start out with a big sail across the Pacific. If you buy a boat in Florida or along the East Coast you have a lot more opportunities for daytime trips along the coast, getting to know your boat and still being close to marine stores, etc. while you work the boat out. You can then work your way down through the Bahamas and the Caribbean with relatively short trips offshore. West coast boats tend toward deeper draft than East Coast boats, which might make a difference to you. I personally consider 6 feet the most I would ever want to deal with here on the East Coast, but you see lots of 7 and 8 footers out on the West Coast. Here in the East Florida is the cheapest by far, but a lot of boats will be suffering from greater sun damage, etc. The Chesapeake is probably the next lowest, and then New England. There are a lot of boats concentrated in the area around Newport, RI. What type of boat you are looking for will make a difference. There are relatively few multihulls in New England, for instance.

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I have never boat shopped on the West Coast, but there are quite a few great looking long-distance cruisers listed out there on YachtWorld at favorable prices. One thing to keep in mind is that if you start in California or Washington you either have to work your way down to Mexico and then across the Pacific, or just start out with a big sail across the Pacific. If you buy a boat in Florida or along the East Coast you have a lot more opportunities for daytime trips along the coast, getting to know your boat and still being close to marine stores, etc. while you work the boat out. You can then work your way down through the Bahamas and the Caribbean with relatively short trips offshore. West coast boats tend toward deeper draft than East Coast boats, which might make a difference to you. I personally consider 6 feet the most I would ever want to deal with here on the East Coast, but you see lots of 7 and 8 footers out on the West Coast. Here in the East Florida is the cheapest by far, but a lot of boats will be suffering from greater sun damage, etc. The Chesapeake is probably the next lowest, and then New England. There are a lot of boats concentrated in the area around Newport, RI. What type of boat you are looking for will make a difference. There are relatively few multihulls in New England, for instance.

Thanks for your input.
My ideal outcome would be to find a 'deal of a lifetime' in Florida, and as you point out it would be great to explore a bit of the Caribbean while we get to know the boat and get her cruise ready for a long and leisurely trip back to Aus through the south Pacific.
The Chesapeake should probably be next on the list, with California only if there is a particularly good deal there.
We'll be looking for a Vagabond 47, Formosa 51/Force 50, or possibly even a CT54 if we can find one at an affordable price.
I'm aware of all their problems and shortcomings, but brought up to snuff they are great livaboards.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by maxingout

... Things are not sustainable the way they are. Something has got to give soon in the monetary system, and I don't think what happens is going to benefit the middle class. It may be a good time to surrender and get a small yacht and sail over the horizon.

Agree completely. I watched my little stash ebb away to nothing. Bought all the boat I need at a bargain rate. Maybe for once I'm ahead of the curve.

[Kettlewell]

We'll be looking for a Vagabond 47, Formosa 51/Force 50, or possibly even a CT54 if we can find one at an affordable price.

When you know what you want you're better off starting on the Internet, doing as much questioning of sellers as possible, and then going to where the boats are. For example, YachtWorld's lowest priced Vagabond 47 is in Grenada, and there are several in the Annapolis area at good prices. It is possible to just stumble upon boat deals while walking the docks and marinas in Florida, and there are a lot of places to walk around, but it will take lots of time and possibly money if you have to pay for accommodations, etc. If you have the time, that kind of shopping can be lots of fun too! However, today the Internet is your friend and it is the way to go to winnow down the list to the ones worth looking at. And, don't just try YachtWorld. Do Google searches and try other listing services. I have seen good boats listed in BoatUS, which I think is still free to members for listings. Soundings is another good one. Good luck!

[VirtualVagabond]

Thanks Kettlewell.
Appreciate the help

[sandy daugherty]

Sorry Tom, when it comes to cruising sailboats you can find a better use for BUC values than reading them, but I can't think of anything except starting the charcoal in a barbeque. They are based on ludicrously inept estimates*, do not reflect any actual sales, and depreciate at an arbitrary fixed rate!

From past experience, I expected to wait a year for an acceptable offer on my PDQ, but got one in 6 months. It fell through, fortunately because my partner wants to sell our big cat. Two weeks on the market, serious visitor already!

The good news for buyers and brokers alike is that owners are coming to believe they won't be low-balled to death by unqualified buyers, and there will be more boats to look at soon. Most sellers are buyers too!

Buyers: bring your fantasy to life by looking for something you can afford now, and be sure there's enough left in the kitty to make it right!

* for example, some prices are computed from the advertised list price of the boat when new with a fixed plus for after-market additions, no consideration for condition, and age times a guesstimated depreciation applied across the board regardless of history (charter, southern climes, winter storage, etc.). The most reliable figure is an average of determined fair market values from multiple, EXPERIENCED surveyors. And you should select them from a list NOT recommended by Banks or Brokers!

They best buy around is the cheapest thing you can find only if you own a full service boat yard.

[smj]

Sandy, I talked to a broker the other day and he said most banks aren't accepting a surveyors appraisal but are using the BUC value instead. Sounds crazy to me as the BUC on multihulls is unbelievably low.

[Kettlewell]

In my experience buying and selling boats the surveyor's estimates were not accurate--they tend to run very high. Besides, I don't think you could find four or five surveyors to give you price estimates on a boat without paying them to inspect the boat, except maybe some of the most common production boats. As a rule you can bet that sellers think that any published price or estimate is too low! There are still plenty of deals to be had out there, and plenty of sellers willing to deal.

[hellosailor]

And here I'd always been told that BUC values were NOT ESTIMATES but were actual sales values, reported by the selling broker after an actual sale. Have I been misinformed? For sure?

[LostAtSea2011]

Originally Posted by smj

Sandy, I talked to a broker the other day and he said most banks aren't accepting a surveyors appraisal but are using the BUC value instead. Sounds crazy to me as the BUC on multihulls is unbelievably low.

Many banks are using NADA...even worse.