A solution for derelict boats!

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Chotu

...I think we should dump anchoring restrictions and gain freedom. Take those statutes off the books.

replace them with local statutes that allow the town that surrounds the Anchorage to account for who is leaving the boats behind in it and hold them responsible for messes they create...

I see your point, but I don't think it's going to work that way in reality.

I'd hate to live in a world where each municipality had final say on where, how and when I can anchor. For one thing it would be impossible to keep track of all the different rules. I think that's what Florida is fighting now.

I can take a real-world example from my own home waters. In Maine, each municipality manages the mooring permits for the waters adjacent to their borders. There's usually a long waiting list for the "good" moorings near the dinghy docks or the municipal and commercial fishing piers. Great effort goes into making sure the rules are "fair" for the local residents.

But the locals don't really care about the remote anchorages. In many places you can walk into the Harbormaster's office, plunk down a check, and you now "own" a piece of the former anchorage. Drop your mooring and now no-one else can ever anchor there. You might only visit it a couple of times a year.

It's getting so all the good anchorages are now filled with rarely-used "destination" moorings. My point is that leaving it up to the local municipality won't result in rules which are favorable to cruising boaters "from away." Only strong oversight by the state and federal governments will protect our rights of navigation.

[s/v Jedi]

IMO all mooring fields should be illegal and removed with the owners footing the cost of removal.

For anchoring there could be code requiring occupancy or at least a caretaker watching over the boat. Abandoned boats handled like abandoned cars, i.e. removal and auction or wrecking.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I see your point, but I don't think it's going to work that way in reality.

I'd hate to live in a world where each municipality had final say on where, how and when I can anchor. For one thing it would be impossible to keep track of all the different rules. I think that's what Florida is fighting now.

I can take a real-world example from my own home waters. In Maine, each municipality manages the mooring permits for the waters adjacent to their borders. There's usually a long waiting list for the "good" moorings near the dinghy docks or the municipal and commercial fishing piers. Great effort goes into making sure the rules are "fair" for the local residents.

But the locals don't really care about the remote anchorages. In many places you can walk into the Harbormaster's office, plunk down a check, and you now "own" a piece of the former anchorage. Drop your mooring and now no-one else can ever anchor there. You might only visit it a couple of times a year.

It's getting so all the good anchorages are now filled with rarely-used "destination" moorings. My point is that leaving it up to the local municipality won't result in rules which are favorable to cruising boaters "from away." Only strong oversight by the state and federal governments will protect our rights of navigation.

I'm very familiar. I'm from there too. Originally before I started cruising and traveling. I was on a 15 year waiting list for a mooring. Never bothered to check back.

I'm also familiar with the destination moorings.

See, this is why locals should be in charge. The situation in Maine is completely different from Florida. Couldn't be more different.

What works in Maine doesn't work in Florida.

You may not want the local governments to be in charge of their anchorages, but they already took charge. Now what?

How about a federal law requiring places tonset aside anchorages, no anchoring restrictions, then locals also get to know the identify of those anchoring on their anchorage?

That would solve your issue, no?

I used to like destination moorings when I had smaller boats. You could always pick one up and spend the night.

Now? No way I'd trust any of those with my current boat.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

IMO all mooring fields should be illegal and removed with the owners footing the cost of removal.

For anchoring there could be code requiring occupancy or at least a caretaker watching over the boat. Abandoned boats handled like abandoned cars, i.e. removal and auction or wrecking.

I dont want to take on the world here, but that wouldn't work in Tom's area.

There are just a few marinas. There are vast mooring fields of private moorings where the locals keep their boats. That's their primary way of storing boats.

If you took them out, you couldn't fit half the boats back in at anchor. And these are seasonal boats people mostly use on weekends.

It's very different in different areas.

Completely different up there from the mooring fields in the anchorages in Florida where they are rentals for transients mostly to raise some cash for the town.

The real solution for the individual boater is to stay away from all these places. But… I was concerned with how many jerks are using Florida anchorages as free storage areas and don’t live here.

Venice comes to mind.

I stopped in Venice just inside the inlet, to the right after you go in.

There is a small spot to anchor near a boat ramp.

I was able to squeeze my boat in there in between five or six run about type power boats. Like small 23 foot Bayliners and 4 sailboats.

There were three sunken ones strewn around the anchorage. And nobody was on any of these boats. Not a soul on any of them. Nobody lived on them. I stayed there a couple days. Nobody came and went to any of the boats in the Anchorage.

The second my anchor hit the bottom, the cops came right up to me. Asking me what my intentions were. That was the language they used.

They looked very relieved that I was leaving in a couple days.

They have a mess. There are a bunch of jerks just leaving boats all over the place in Florida right now. I have seen it everywhere. I have been up and down the west and east coast intercoastals. The anchorages are filled up with people using them as free spots to keep boats that they do not occupy.

Then these boats drag because they are not attended, and end up all over the place. And there are more derelict boats all over the place in the mangroves and sunken this year than I have ever seen down here before. I’ve been doing this a really long time.

The problem has changed. The boat bums have vanished.

Now, we have people with means that are just being cheap jerks and ruining the waterway.

I think they should be held accountable. To the fullest extent possible. They should be paying for the damage these boats are doing. Or they should be paying for a marina. Or selling a boat.

[Chotu]

The closest thing I saw to boat bums on this circumnavigation of Florida was some scrappierlooking people in Saint Pete. Ha ha.

They were a little rough around the edges. But that’s kind of the flavor of the area anyway. They were welcomed in the community. And it was actually really nice there. I didn’t fit in. I’m clean-cut. They are not. They had a lot of dreads and really nappy hair. Pretty dirty. A little bit weird a little bit drunk. But I interacted with some of them and they were all really nice people. They just had a look or an image.

They were not boat bums at all. They were people living on their boats in the community and being responsible with the boats.

[PineappleOrange]

I think that is the difficult thing. What do you do once you pluck it from the water?

Landfills have certain size requirements, if you're going to crush em, you need to strip hazardous materials from them. What if they are steel or aluminum?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by PineappleOrange

I think that is the difficult thing. What do you do once you pluck it from the water?

Landfills have certain size requirements, if you're going to crush em, you need to strip hazardous materials from them. What if they are steel or aluminum?

Same as with cars, if not sold at auction then you scrap them. All valuables like marine gear, lead keels, aluminum, steel etc. sold to recover some of the cost, the rest paid by the tax payer.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

IMO all mooring fields should be illegal and removed with the owners footing the cost of removal.

For anchoring there could be code requiring occupancy or at least a caretaker watching over the boat. Abandoned boats handled like abandoned cars, i.e. removal and auction or wrecking.

i like this common sense approach....


the problem of derelict cars have already been solved...just do the same.

[sailorboy1]

I feel the problem is that very boat in Florida should have to have insurance for removal costs that is paid with a fee upon registration.

But I will say again that there are a lot less derelict boats in Florida that 6 years ago. But at same time there are still ones from 6 years ago that my wife and I use to explain to a location to each other.

BTW it would be a terrible thing for boaters if each town could outlaw anchored boats. And mooring fields IMO are a great thing in Fl and can only get approved at the State level.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by Chotu

BlueH2OBound: yes. I am supposed to be working on an app. Very frustrated because the signal is pretty weak here where I am. I’m having difficulties getting anything to work.

Where is that star link thread again? Ha ha ha. Still not willing to pay for that.

Chotu, I'm just teasing you about the app! I've got lots of stuff I should be doing, but end up doing something else instead . . .
Re/ the starlink, yep, we'll pay the increase, but much beyond that, and we'll consider going back to our "old ways".

[Sailor Sailor]

The Feds have jurisdiction over navigable waters and pollution spills.

Each state has its own constitution and laws. Express federal law preempts state law, meaning the state cannot legislate in areas where the federal government has already spoken.

Municipalities can enact their own laws, provided they do not exceed the authority granted by the state (Dillon's Rule) or in contradiction to the state's laws.

There are several issues here being mixed together in this thread.

First is freedom of navigation. Navigation means a boat in transit from one place to another, what those of us who are old school would call "cruising". True cruisers do not anchor for more than a day or two or three. Two weeks sounds like a generous allowance for purposes of navigation. Most of us takes transient slips in marinas. Cruisers do not anchor their boats somewhere in order to live there on the cheap. People in the U.S. are free to navigate without restriction by the states or localities. The USCG is free to stop you, board your boat, and question you without probable cause.

Second, under the 4th A. to the U.S. Constitution, the government cannot arrest you or search you without a warrant issued based on probable cause (except for the U.S.C.G.). In certain instances, where there are exigent circumstances (meaning the requirement of a warrant is not practically possible), the government may make warrantless searches and arrests. The 4th A. is applicable to the states by the 14 A.

There is a lesser threshold for a stop and identify under Terry v. Ohio, of reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal activity. This is not probable cause -it is something less for a more limited intrusion of one's rights.

There is a privilege against self-incrimination under the 5th A. No one is required to speak to the police or law enforcement, or answer questions. You have right to remain silent. That does not mean you will not be arrested or searched.

Third, the basis for many 4th A. rights, and Constitutional rights, is a reasonable expectation of privacy. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy while you are in public. On private property, not subject to public view, you do have such a right. Boats and cars do not have the same protection as a private residence.

Fourth, there is a civil right to be free from nuisances in the use of your property. A public nuisance is when someone unreasonably interferes with a right that the general public shares in common; a private nuisance is when someone unreasonably interferes with a private owner's use and enjoyment of his or her property.

For clarity, let's distinguish between vessels navigating and boat bums. No one needs to live on a boat because they are indigent. In the U.S., there is a plethora of public assistance - food, lodging, medical care, legal defense, and job training for folks in need, if they are willing to accept it. This is available from the government and private charities. Accepting it requires being mentally competent, dry and drug free. That is an unacceptable bargain for some, who prefer to be nuts, drunks, drug addicts, and bums, instead of responsible members of society. Most of them are also nuisances. They interfere with other people's use of their private property. I understand why the owners of waterfront homes do not want non-navigating boat bums parked in front of their homes.

BoatUS represents the interests of responsible boat owners. IMHO, boat bums are not part of that community. If the derelict boats are not impeding navigation or spilling toxins into the water, the state is responsible. Florida can solve its own problems, which are many, as long as it respects constitutional rights. If you do not like it, move somewhere else.

[Montanan]

FYI:
https://myfwc.com/boating/waterway/d...doned-vessels/


Abandoned Vessels - Florida law.

What is an abandoned vessel?

"Abandoned property" means all tangible personal property that does not have an identifiable owner and that has been disposed on public property in a wrecked, inoperative, or partially dismantled condition or has no apparent intrinsic value to the rightful owner. The term includes derelict vessels as defined in s. 823.11(1).

"Public property" means lands and improvements owned by the Federal Government, the state, the county, or a municipality and includes sovereignty submerged lands located adjacent to the county or municipality, buildings, grounds, parks, playgrounds, streets, sidewalks, parkways, rights-of-way, and other similar property.

Every vessel owner should realize that there will be an end of life for their vessel. If they have an opportunity to legally sell the vessel near its end of life, that's Great! If not, the owner must have a plan to properly dispose of the vessel.

Illegal methods of disposing of your vessel:

Sinking as an artificial reef or Fishing attractant without DEP and Corp of Army Engineers approval and permitting. This is Felony Dumping (Jail Time)
Discarding by cutting it loose and letting it drift away hoping it will disappear. This is Felony Dumping (Jail Time)
Pulling it up to a boat ramp and grounding it and leaving it.
Mooring it without any plan to continue its upkeep and maintenance.
Burning the vessel in open water to destroy it.
Giving it to someone who says they will take it off of your hands without properly transferring title and ownership.

You as the owner are responsible for removing the vessel from the waters of the state and having it transported to an approved landfill for destruction. The cost for doing this is a fraction of what the costs are to remove it from the water and destroy it after it sinks. Do your part to help the environment, the safety of others and the welfare of the state by disposing of your vessel responsibly.

Intentionally dumping your vessel on the waters of the state is a 3rd degree Felony punishable by up to 5 years in prison and/ or a $5,000.00 fine. Also, restitution to the state for the later cost of removal, fines, community service, probation or parole, lost registration privileges, and continued litigation for repayment in full.

If you can't do it by yourself, find someone who can help you. Don't take a chance of getting into serious trouble.


Abandoned Vessel Claims Process FAQs


https://myfwc.com/boating/waterway/d...-process-faqs/

Claiming an Abandoned Vessel in Florida

Florida has no salvage laws giving the finder of an abandoned vessel rights of ownership. Florida is a title state, thereby requiring a transfer of vessel title from owner to purchaser in order to obtain legal ownership. A person who finds an abandoned vessel and who wants to make claim to it must comply with Section 705.103, Florida Statutes. This will allow for a person to make claim to the property and make application for title transfer into his name.



Frequently asked questions

Can I just help myself to an abandoned vessel that has been discarded or left on public waters of the state?

No! It is a crime in the state of Florida to take an abandoned vessel without first getting title to it, doing so is considered theft. Failure to comply with Section 705.103, Florida Statutes could result in fines or even jail time.

If I see a vessel that I believe is abandoned, how do I make claim to it and start the claims process?

The first requirement is to report it to a law enforcement agency. The law enforcement agency will collect a fee for beginning an investigation, conduct an investigation under Section 705.103, Florida Statutes, and determine the owner of the vessel. If the vessel is not claimed in the process of the investigation, the law enforcement agency may allow the transfer to the finder with evidence of the investigation and a copy of the Lost or Abandoned Property Certificate FWCDLE-003. The finder would then make application to the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles (DHSMV) to have the title put into his name.

What am I required to bring to the DHSMV when making application to transfer the title into my name?

Please review document VSTL-29 of the Florida DHSMV explaining the procedures for acquiring such title. Remember, the investigation referred to in this document must be completed by a law enforcement agency.

How long does this process usually take and how much does it usually cost?

The investigation process usually takes between 45 days to 120 days or longer. The cost associated with the investigation is usually between $300 and $600. The costs may be more or less than this depending on the investigation requirements.

What happens if I get title and then can't remove the vessel or bring it into legal compliance?

Once title has been transferred into your name, you become legally responsible for the vessel. If its condition were to become derelict, then you would be held responsible. Derelict vessel owners can face both civil and criminal penalties which may include jail.

Can I take parts of an abandoned or derelict vessel without obtaining title?

Absolutely not! This is considered theft and would subject a person taking such parts to criminal charges.

Can I claim a vessel that has been posted as derelict by a law enforcement agency?

In most cases the answer would be no. Due to an ongoing criminal investigation and the condition of the vessel, it is not suitable for the claims process. In some cases however, with the approval of the investigating officer, derelict vessels may be claimed.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

The police cannot ID someone without reasonable articulate suspicion that the person has committed is committing or is about to commit a crime.

You must hate the constitution and want to deny people rights. I hope you are not a US citizen because this is the wrong type of way of thinking and not the type of person I want to share the country with.

I was recently arrested in florida for refusing to identify to the police. They had no right to ID me. The judge said I am innocent. Now I can sue the police. I will end up costing the city of key west thousands of dollars because the police didnt respect my rights.

If a cop asks me for ID I refuse: MY RIGHTS MY RIGHTS I will NEVER SHUT UP about MY RIGHTS.

They can require a permit, which could require you give ID.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

Chotu, I'm just teasing you about the app! I've got lots of stuff I should be doing, but end up doing something else instead . . .
Re/ the starlink, yep, we'll pay the increase, but much beyond that, and we'll consider going back to our "old ways".

Actually, I would love for you to be on my case about it. Ha ha.

I could use the reminder.

Today the signal is fine and I got a lot done. I shouldn’t be looking at the forum right now. I should continue working. But the weird thing about creating an app is sometimes you just hit a wall and you just don’t want to do it anymore for a little bit. I am there right now after a very productive morning.

[Montanan]

FYI

The 2022 Florida Statutes (including 2022 Special Session A and 2023 Special Session B)

Title XXIV
VESSELS
Chapter 327 VESSEL SAFETY

327.73 Noncriminal infractions.—

(1) Violations of the following provisions of the vessel laws of this state are noncriminal infractions:
(a) Section 328.46, relating to operation of unregistered and unnumbered vessels.
(b) Section 328.48(4), relating to display of number and possession of registration certificate.
(c) Section 328.48(5), relating to display of decal.
(d) Section 328.52(2), relating to display of number.
(e) Section 328.54, relating to spacing of digits and letters of identification number.
(f) Section 328.60, relating to military personnel and registration of vessels.
(g) Section 328.72(13), relating to operation with an expired registration, for which the penalty is:
1. For a first or subsequent offense of s. 328.72(13)(a), up to a maximum of $100.
2. For a first offense of s. 328.72(13)(b), up to a maximum of $250.
3. For a second or subsequent offense of s. 328.72(13)(b), up to a maximum of $500. Any person cited for a noncriminal infraction under this subparagraph may not have the provisions of paragraph (4)(a) available to him or her but must appear before the designated official at the time and location of the scheduled hearing.

. . .

z) Section 327.4108, relating to the anchoring of vessels in anchoring limitation areas, for which the penalty is:
1. For a first offense, up to a maximum of $100.
2. For a second offense, up to a maximum of $250.
3. For a third or subsequent offense, up to a maximum of $500.
(aa) Section 327.4107, relating to vessels at risk of becoming derelict on waters of this state, for which the civil penalty is:
1. For a first offense, $100.
2. For a second offense occurring 30 days or more after a first offense, $250.
3. For a third or subsequent offense occurring 30 days or more after a previous offense, $500.

A vessel that is the subject of three or more violations issued pursuant to the same paragraph of s. 327.4107(2) within an 18-month period which result in dispositions other than acquittal or dismissal shall be declared to be a public nuisance and subject to ss. 705.103(2) and (4) and 823.11(3). The commission, an officer of the commission, or a law enforcement agency or officer specified in s. 327.70 may relocate, remove, or cause to be relocated or removed such public nuisance vessels from waters of this state. The commission, an officer of the commission, or a law enforcement agency or officer acting pursuant to this paragraph upon waters of this state shall be held harmless for all damages to the vessel resulting from such relocation or removal unless the damage results from gross negligence or willful misconduct as these terms are defined in s. 823.11.

(bb) Section 327.4109, relating to anchoring or mooring in a prohibited area, for which the penalty is:
1. For a first offense, up to a maximum of $100.
2. For a second offense, up to a maximum of $250.
3. For a third or subsequent offense, up to a maximum of $500.
(cc) Section 327.463(4)(a) and (b), relating to vessels creating special hazards, for which the penalty is:
1. For a first offense, $100.
2. For a second offense occurring within 12 months after a prior offense, $250.
3. For a third offense occurring within 36 months after a prior offense, $500.
(dd) Section 327.371, relating to the regulation of human-powered vessels.
(ee) Section 328.03, relating to an improper transfer of title, for which the penalty is up to a maximum of $500.
(ff) Section 328.48(9), relating to the failure to update vessel registration information, for which the penalty is up to a maximum of $500.

Any person cited for a violation of this subsection shall be deemed to be charged with a noncriminal infraction, shall be cited for such an infraction, and shall be cited to appear before the county court. The civil penalty for any such infraction is $100, except as otherwise provided in this section. Any person who fails to appear or otherwise properly respond to a uniform boating citation, in addition to the charge relating to the violation of the boating laws of this state, must be charged with the offense of failing to respond to such citation and, upon conviction, be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. A written warning to this effect shall be provided at the time such uniform boating citation is issued.

(2) Any person cited for an infraction under this section may:
(a) Post a bond, which shall be equal in amount to the applicable civil penalty; or
(b) Sign and accept a citation indicating a promise to appear.
The officer may indicate on the citation the time and location of the scheduled hearing and shall indicate the applicable civil penalty.

(3) Any person who willfully refuses to post a bond or accept and sign a summons is guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree.
(4) Any person charged with a noncriminal infraction under this section may:
(a) Pay the civil penalty, either by mail or in person, within 30 days of the date of receiving the citation; or,
(b) If he or she has posted bond, forfeit bond by not appearing at the designated time and location.


(4) A person who has been convicted of a designated misdemeanor may be sentenced as follows:
(a) For a misdemeanor of the first degree, by a definite term of imprisonment not exceeding 1 year;
(b) For a misdemeanor of the second degree, by a definite term of imprisonment not exceeding 60 days.