America’s Cup - ETNZ launches 1st AC75 (new)

[CassidyNZ]

@ Wingsail - I watched the video again - Burling clearly turned away from the line with Spithill sailing much higher and close to the line. Given the mandatory “exclusion zone”, if Burling had held his course for a normal start, Spithill would have crossed the line.

When Spithill tacked away, Burling was carrying enough boatspeed to be able to tack and stay on his foils. Surely that was enough boatspeed to sail slightly higher than Spithill or even hold the same course. But to actually bear away and make space for Spithill??

At the point where this all happened if Spithill had tried to drop leeward of Burling to “hook” him as you suggest, he would have been waaay past the end of the line. Besides he was far enough away not to even consider that option.

Sorry, still don’t get it. A person who holds 5 world titles and 2 Olympic Golds in crowded fleet starts should get a better start than that unless of course the rule has changed

Will also be keen to hear other opinions.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm interested in what others think.

That is my view too.

A couple of other points that I would add for CassidyNZ's understanding are:

- If ETNZ had have come up to hard on the wind at the early part of the prestart (and as you said then be in a position to luff Prada) then ETNZ would have ended up over the start line early and would have been penalised.

That's not to say that ETNZ still need to improve their starts - they do.
This was apparent in bermuda too, where it seemed to take Peter Burling quite a long time to "warm up" and get is starts up to a competitive level.
That said he always seemed confident in having the boatspeed to resolve this, and it would to be same now too (at least for the moment).

- Addtionally, and especially in light air, it is very noticeable how the most important factor is of course to keep the boat foiling almost at any cost. Sail more distance, stay in an unfavourable situation, incur a penalty, etc, etc, all seems to be worth it if it means staying on the foils. The theory seems to be "we can catch up later" (but that will be twice as hard if we come off the foils).

So in light air this also somewhat reduces the opportunity of old style match racing tactics of luffing up, head to wind, letting momentum carry the boat forward and retain steerage to then be able to fall off and sail again, etc, etc.

These AC75s can match race, but not quite in the same way. And we have seen a couple of instances where a match racing technique was used, yes to get a penalty, but more importantly to force the other boat to come off the foils. The adavantage gained is worth much more than the penalty itself.

In light air it seems like it takes 30 to 45 seconds AND a huge course change to around 90 degrees to the wind to be able to build enough speed to get back on the foils. That was very apparent in Race 4 (12) yesterday between ETNZ and Luna Rossa.

NB: the subject of penalties is becoming interesting.

Several times over the last days Jimmy Spithill seems to have intentionally put Prada in a situation where they would be penalised, willing to accept the 50m penality, in order to better position the boat thereafter. I'm not quite sure that this in the spirit of the rule but it certainly is a very clever strategy for a boat that is already behind, because the 50m penalty evaportates in moments.

We saw the same from Ineos, who had a penalty from the prestart, were informed of this penalty by the race committee soon after starting, and you could hear Ben Anslie answer "don't worry the penalty will come off very shortly" - meaning ETNZ (I think) would soon extend by 50m simply because they are faster thereby causing Ineos' penalty to magically disappear without having to do anything.

Again, I'm not quite sure that is the intention of the penalty. It seems like no penalty at all really.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Having watched the racing yesterday live and this moron again on YouTube, I have to say I’m confused. Perhaps there are rules specific to AC that I’m not aware of so maybe someone can help me out here.

Back in the dark ages when I used to race sailing boats, there was a luffing rule in which a leeward boat was legally entitled to turn to windward towards a windward boat who was threatening to foist a poor start on him. The rule in simple terms I believe was “weather boat keeps clear/gives way”.

In the start of the 4th race on Day 3, Prada was approaching the line to weather of ETNZ and held ETNZ off the start line, pushing them well past the end of the start line, causing them to have tack onto port to cross the line and losing several 100 metres.

So why did Burling not simply go for the line and luff Spithill? In my day, that would have been strategically smart. What am I missing here? Have the rules changed in general or is it just for AC?

I watched that one with interest and believe that to have avoided being run off the pin end of the line as he was, Burling would have to have slowed down enough to fall off the foils, turned up and being across the line early or tacking onto port and becoming the give way boat. Tough spot and the kind of thing that takes way too much brain power in the moment when you are driving the boat.
I briefly wondered if he could have forced the other boat over the line by heading up to the line and still gybing as he did. Watching the replay I don't think he could slow down quickly enough to force this action.
Dan

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

@ Wingsail - I watched the video again - Burling clearly turned away from the line with Spithill sailing much higher and close to the line. Given the mandatory “exclusion zone”, if Burling had held his course for a normal start, Spithill would have crossed the line.

The video coverage on the replay begins at 20 seconds to the start and at that point ETNZ already look to be too early to the line (they might have been on time for the pin end if the wind didn't shift).

- this is then compounded by the wind "going left" (you hear Ken Read repeat a comment from onboard "big leftie here")

- this causes ETNZ to be forced to bear off - but actually they were still hard on the wind

- and you hear the comment from Ken Read "they might not even make the pin end of the starting line"

- at this point it's less than 10 seconds to the start and both boats are paralleling the line - Luna Rossa bore off to retain control there and not give ETNZ any room

- and Game Over at that point as ETNZ is out of options.

- But in the Live TV it was possible to see ETNZ come on with more pace after the start. Luna Rossa had tacked at the line and were therefore still building speed, and no doubt they also wanted to stay in "high mode" to try and defend their windward position.

That's how I see it anyway.

But as noted in my earlier post, ETNZ still need to improve their starts.

[Dave_S]

A bit off topic to the direction the thead is going but...

The engineers seem to be controlling the racing, i.e. the best designed boats are winning and it seems not so much the better yachtsman. I hope the format doesn't change too much for the next AC so the teams can get their designs better sorted or go back to a format that has less penalty for coming off the foils and maybe a few more players.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

A bit off topic to the direction the thead is going but...

The engineers seem to be controlling the racing, i.e. the best designed boats are winning and it seems not so much the better yachtsman. I hope the format doesn't change too much for the next AC so the teams can get their designs better sorted or go back to a format that has less penalty for coming off the foils and maybe a few more players.

No I disagree, this is really all about the sailors.

Of course the engineers and designers have to give the sailors a good boat, but the sailors will win or lose this regatta based on their ability more than I can recall seeing.

In the first place it's the sailors who keep the boats from coming off the foils, or having a disaster tack or gybe, or doing a wheelie. Any of these mistakes cost HUGE margins and it is the skill of the sailors to avoid it. Even TNZ, with maybe the best engineering, has had these problems due to errors in the driving.

Secondly, due to wild speed differentials (2-4 times the speed of the wind) the tactical decisions have amazing consequences. If you can gain or lose 300 meters in less than a minute then the skill of the sailor can make all the difference. Imagine you put the boat into a 12 knot patch of wind instead of an 8 knot patch. At 4 times the wind speed you will be going 48 knots instead of 32, 16 KNOTS faster! That makes up almost 500 meters in a minute.

I think this is the best racing, sailors's racing, we've seen.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

A bit off topic to the direction the thead is going but...

The engineers seem to be controlling the racing, i.e. the best designed boats are winning and it seems not so much the better yachtsman.

Sure the engineers are controlling the racing - in AC history it’s alwaÿs been the fastest boat that wins. The best crew on the planet can’t turn a basset into a greyhound. But it is eminently possible for a poor crew to do the opposite and we’re witnessing that possibility right now.

But when “gains” are made, it’s almost always an “engineering” enhancement that does it. In San Francisco (IMHO), the Oracle boat was always a faster boat than ETNZ. But in the first half of the campaign, the crew struggled to manage the boat. Once the software controlling the foils on Oracle’s boat got sorted (engineering solution), ETNZ’s only view of them was their rudders.

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I hope the format doesn't change too much for the next AC so the teams can get their designs better sorted or go back to a format that has less penalty for coming off the foils and maybe a few more players.

The intent I believe, is to cap AC budgets in future which hopefully will see concepts (like AC75) last more than one campaign. Personally I would have enjoyed seeing the cats used in Bermuda do another season or two.

This Cup has also displayed beyond doubt that money is not necessarily the solution. One team having the budget of probably the other three teams combined has done absolutely nothing to enhance their chances of success.

[A la carte]

Watching the AC, I'm confused... When downwind, they seem very close hauled. In fact, whether upwind or downwind, they're close hauled. Why?

Also, which NBC would show wind direction along with their other graphics.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by A la carte

Watching the AC, I'm confused... When downwind, they seem very close hauled. In fact, whether upwind or downwind, they're close hauled. Why?

Also, which NBC would show wind direction along with their other graphics.

The sails on a sailboat are always trimmed to the "apparent wind" which is the wind felt by the boat as it moves forward.

If the wind is blowing 10 knots and the boat is sailing across the wind on what would be a broad reach, but at 40 knots (due to the astonishing speeds of these boats) then the wind on the sails appears to be coming from the front of the boat, not from behind. The sails must be trimmed to this "apparent wind".

If you are able to access the "Virtual Eye" dashboard you can see the wind information, also on most overhead shot the wind arrows are often displayed.

[Boatguy30]

That’s how far the apparent wind is pulled at those speeds. When off the foils downwind yesterday you can see the were sailing higher relative to the course axis with sails more eased.

Also there are different rules that apply to match racing particularly at the start and I’m sure the standard match racing rules have been also modified for these starts.

[A la carte]

Thanks Wingsail and Boatguy30. I understand apparent wind but, it just doesn't seem physically possible for the AC75s to be doing what they're doing with those seemingly slight foil adjustments. Quite amazing.

No, I can't access the "Virtual Eye". I'm watching on NBC sports. Is there another source to watch with the virtual eye?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by A la carte

No, I can't access the "Virtual Eye". I'm watching on NBC sports. Is there another source to watch with the virtual eye?

I posted all the links a few posts back, but maybe you missed it. Here is the Virtual Eye link again, not sure if it's blocked in the USA, if yes you can use a VPN or a Smart DNS to solve that:

https://www.americascup.com/en/advanced-dashboard

[cj88]

This is the funniest race right now. Ineos has finally found their sweet spot...in displacement mode.

[JPA Cate]

Odd comment, at least to me.

I'm feeling sorry for them: there's clearly something wrong somewhere, software or hardware. It's no fun getting skunked, and it's not much fun struggling to get the boat to behave as you want it to.

Ann

[cj88]

They were having a bit of a laugh onboard Ineos on the downwind leg about going back in time for some old school displacement racing and they were actually going quicker than ETNZ in that mode. I think they need to get their foils sorted. They have tried something quite different with their foils but it doesn't seem to have panned out for them.