America’s Cup - ETNZ launches 1st AC75 (new)

[MicHughV]

If you get right down to it.....there must be close to $500 mil spent on winning or keeping this cup....it's a bit over the top if you ask me...and after the races are done...what do you do with these boats ??? Who would want them??

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

If you get right down to it.....there must be close to $500 mil spent on winning or keeping this cup....it's a bit over the top if you ask me...and after the races are done...what do you do with these boats ??? Who would want them??

What do you think a Formula 1 campaign costs... ?

Answer: 100s of millions of dollars per season.

Red Bull Reveals How Much It Really Costs To Run An F1 Team
https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2...h=4dee702877c1

F1 Car cost 2020: How much does an F1 Car Cost in 2020, Which Formula 1 Team Spends Most?
https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1...4400%20million.

"Traditionally, F1 giants such as Ferrari and Mercedes spend the most, with cost estimates over $400 million. On the other hand, minnows like Haas spend less than (half?) what the two giants spend on it."

ETNZ is the most successful team in the modern era of the Cup. Could they be considered the Mercedes or Ferrari of the America's Cup?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

If you get right down to it.....there must be close to $500 mil spent on winning or keeping this cup....it's a bit over the top if you ask me...and after the races are done...what do you do with these boats ??? Who would want them??

If they stick with the same class and make some more of the components one design and limit sails, then the #2 boats become the trial horse of the next campaign and could possibly be upgraded to the then current spec so that only one new boat has to be built for the next cup. That would allow a relatively cheap entry for a few more teams as the world bounces back from Covid.

Team NZ has reportedly spent NZD150M, so a bit less than USD100M. They are a dominant team yet have underspent most of the others throughout their history. The one time they had a lot of money to work with (2002/2003) they did the worst.

I’m not sure what the return on investment is for a challenger, but for this defence the advertising for New Zealand is worth at least the cost of the government contribution (~NZD75M) according to various marketing gurus.

What do Emirates or Ineos or Prada get out of their multi-campaign deals?

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

"Traditionally, F1 giants such as Ferrari and Mercedes spend the most, with cost estimates over $400 million. On the other hand, minnows like Haas spend less than (half?) what the two giants spend on it."

ETNZ is the most successful team in the modern era of the Cup. Could they be considered the Mercedes or Ferrari of the America's Cup?

Not coincidentally, both the F1 giants are also very successful car builders who almost certainly write off their F1 campaigns pre-tax. They are of course also huge financial institutions with incredibly deep pockets. ETNZ on the other hand have no meaningful revenue streams, only expenses, no tax write-offs and depend to a not-inconsiderable degree on pure charity (taxpayer contributions).

Mercedes have won the constructor championships for the last seven years, Ferrari last won it in 2008 so factually they can’t even be compared to each other but yes they are the two highest-profile teams.

In the modern AC era, Alinghi were successful twice, unsuccessful once, success rate 66%
Oracle were successful twice, unsuccessful once, success rate 66%
ETNZ have been successful 3 times and unsuccessful 4 times, success rate 43%. Even if they win this year, success rate is still just 50%.

But I guess you can make statistics say whatever you want by choosing the right numbers. After all, statistically the average human being has less than two legs. But to say that ETNZ is the highest profile team in the AC I believe is correct.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Not coincidentally, both the F1 giants are also very successful car builders who almost certainly write off their F1 campaigns pre-tax. They are of course also huge financial institutions with incredibly deep pockets. ETNZ on the other hand have no meaningful revenue streams, only expenses, no tax write-offs and depend to a not-inconsiderable degree on pure charity (taxpayer contributions).



Mercedes have won the constructor championships for the last seven years, Ferrari last won it in 2008 so factually they can’t even be compared to each other but yes they are the two highest-profile teams.



In the modern AC era, Alinghi were successful twice, unsuccessful once, success rate 66%

Oracle were successful twice, unsuccessful once, success rate 66%

ETNZ have been successful 3 times and unsuccessful 4 times, success rate 43%. Even if they win this year, success rate is still just 50%.



But I guess you can make statistics say whatever you want by choosing the right numbers. After all, statistically the average human being has less than two legs. But to say that ETNZ is the highest profile team in the AC I believe is correct.

As a brand (in America’s up terms), we once had the New York Yacht Club. That was solid. Since 1983 NYYC has gone missing in terms of profile.

Team New Zealand was formed after the 1992 cup, when Michael Fay stopped his support (ran out of money?). Since then Team New Zealand has become by far the winningest single team of the modern era.

Oracle and Alinghi may have better winning percentages (which will go down with each year those no-dead syndicates fail to take part), but New Zealand teams have reached the America’s Cup final or Louis Vuitton final every time in the 11 events since 1983. No other team comes close.

Regarding funding, it is a combination of public and corporate support, with Matteo De Nora and Stephen Tindall providing the bulk of private wealth in addition to sponsors such as Nestle and Emirates. Government support is about 20-40% of the total (depends on whether it’s in or out of NZ) and is justified by the direct economic benefits to the boat building, boat services and tourism industries in New Zealand. It’s the same reason the NZ government helped fund the making of the Lord of the Rings movies.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Team New Zealand was formed after the 1992 cup, when Michael Fay stopped his support (ran out of money?). Since then Team New Zealand has become by far the winningest single team of the modern era.

Oracle and Alinghi may have better winning percentages (which will go down with each year those no-dead syndicates fail to take part), but New Zealand teams have reached the America’s Cup final or Louis Vuitton final every time in the 11 events since 1983. No other team comes close.

Yes, but as was famously said once, in the AC, there is no second place. There are winners and there are losers. Team New Zealand have lost more than they have won. The fact that they have even had to compete in more LV series than others tells it’s own story of losing. I believe the first and only time a defender competed in a challenger series was in 2017 when Oracle chose it that way.

Also famously once said, getting to the final and losing is like kissing your sister. The look of complete dejection on the faces of ALL losing AC teams says it all.

Highest profile? Absolutely. Most successful? Marginally, yes. They’ve won twice, successfully defended once. That’s only one win more than two other “modern era” teams. Let’s see what this year delivers.

On edit: I reckon that Michael Fay aborted AC when Dennis Connor shafted him with a catamaran against the monster that NZ developed and Fay realised that most often, dirty tricks rather than sportsmanship won the day. Compared to today’s billionaires, Fay was not really that rich that he could pour buckets of money into a failed dream.

[Boatguy30]

Yes, the NZ govt funding of these ventures has been excellent to exacerbate the housing crisis.

As far as the boats, will just be more yard art for the Viaduct and probably the AM boat will go to the Museum in Bristol, RI.

[Jim Cate]

On edit: I reckon that Michael Fay aborted AC when Dennis Connor shafted him with a catamaran against the monster that NZ developed and Fay realised that most often, dirty tricks rather than sportsmanship won the day. Compared to today’s billionaires, Fay was not really that rich that he could pour buckets of money into a failed dream.

As a Yank cruiser in the NZ region during the Fay vs Conner era, when asked how I felt about that confrontation (Fay's unprecedented Goliath mono vs Conners cat, both stretches of the rules and the traditions) I would say "they deserved each other". For the racing community, we deserved neither.

Jim

[Pelagic]

Well said Jim

[jmh2002]

Well, the response by the San Diego Yacht Club, to Sir Michael Fay's Deed of Gift challenge, should have been to build a similar 90ft waterline monohull - that would have been awesome for the racing community as 'KZ1, The Big Boat' was state of the art for monohulls at the time.

And it was meant to be a return to the glory days of J-Class type yachts, but with modern technology.

Instead San Diego Yacht Club's initial response was reject the challenge in totality (and illegally) because it upset the little click that they had going with the 12 meters.

And then the real trouble started in the courts and the the american legal system, and the american idea of it being 'their' cup, of 'ownership', and of expecting complete control, and being prepared to do anything, morally, illegally, to ensure that.

Decades later that hasn't really worked out so well for them.

Decades of such sour and under handed behaviour has created a core group of challengers who's goal is ensure that the Cup does not fall back into American hands, such is the despise of their handling of the Cup, and Challenges for the Cup.

We still haven't heard the full story of what happened in San Francisco either, since it's shrouded under legal NDAs. But the basics are well known amongst the sailing community. Oracle cheated in order to modify their boat and in order to mount a comeback against Team New Zealand.

Larry then tried to shaft Team New Zealand as much as possible for the next Cup, changing the rules, changing the class (twice!), changing the event location, removing the series that should have been held in NZ, etc, etc, and even allowing the Defender to race in the Challenger series! WTF!

That's how threatened they felt by a Team from a little country down under with a few million people living there. That's how under handed they were willing to be.

Result - a multimillion dollar payout to ETNZ, because these actions were not legal.

Result - ETNZ winning the Cup fair and square even against all these obstacles that were put in their way.

Result - Larry throwing all his toys out of the sand pit and trying to create an alternative event to the Cup which he could control (now Sail GP).

Result - ETNZ and COR Luna Rossa putting further protocols in place to try and bring some sense of fairness back into the event, relatively speaking of course, since it's still the America's Cup.

It's also part of why the Defender agrees a Challenger of Record in advance, and why after the final race of the Cup (assuming the incumbent Defender wins) the officially designated person (in this case the Commodore of the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron) is hidden away until they can receive the official notice of the next challenge by the next COR.

Not doing that leaves one open to 'wildcard' non pre-selected challenge under the Deed of Gift.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

...On edit: I reckon that Michael Fay aborted AC when Dennis Connor shafted him with a catamaran against the monster that NZ developed and Fay realised that most often, dirty tricks rather than sportsmanship won the day. Compared to today’s billionaires, Fay was not really that rich that he could pour buckets of money into a failed dream.

I don't think that Denis Conner or the SDYC shafted Fay at all.

Fay dropped his surprise challenge with the 90' monohull on Conner and the SDYC, declining to negotiate an agreement of the terms of the match as had been the tradition. SDYC thought everyone was going to follow the tradition with a 12mtr challenge as had been done the previous challenges but Fay looked at the Deed and found he was not required to do that. Fay was right to do it under the Deed of Gift. Conner and the SDYC didn't like that little surprise but it was legal under the deed. Conner responded with his choice of boat, the catamaran, as also permitted under the deed of gift. This is termed a D.O.G (Deed of Gift match). Conner was forced by the terms of the Deed of Gift to respond, and respond he did.

Fay boxed Conner into a corner with his big boat and a short time frame for the match, Conner had little choice. Fay was not shafted, he simply did not anticipate how it would turn out when he made his challenge. Both parties are bound only by the Deed of Gift unless they negotiate otherwise.

The other D.O.G. match in recent times was Alinghi's Catamaran against Oracle's Tri.

It works better if the Defender and Challenger of record sort things out ahead of time, as they did this time and usually do.

[MicHughV]

Interestingly enough, some years back, I opted to do some salmon fishing in Vancouver Sound.

Walking down the dock in Nainamo, on Vancouver Island, BC, to meet my fishing guide, I strolled by two older 12M AC boats, back when 12M was the name of the game, tied up next to each other, that were tied up to the dock. I forget their names. Sorry. My guide told me they were used to provide " rides" for "tourists" on Vancouver Sound.

So, I can imagine that the current crop of AC 75's foiling boats will see out their lives as a tourist attraction. I, myself, would spring a few bucks, to zip around one of these foiling giants for an hour or two.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Interestingly enough, some years back, I opted to do some salmon fishing in Vancouver Sound.

Walking down the dock in Nainamo, on Vancouver Island, BC, to meet my fishing guide, I strolled by two older 12M AC boats, back when 12M was the name of the game, tied up next to each other, that were tied up to the dock. I forget their names. Sorry. My guide told me they were used to provide " rides" for "tourists" on Vancouver Sound.

So, I can imagine that the current crop of AC 75's foiling boats will see out their lives as a tourist attraction. I, myself, would spring a few bucks, to zip around one of these foiling giants for an hour or two.

Having delivered one of those old AC 12metre boats I know I would not pay for a joy ride on one..
Mind, it was only me plus 1..

[Jim Cate]

It was a long time ago, but IIRC there was some additional impetus to the Fay vs Conner debacle. Seems that Fay, thinking that the time advantage he had with the "big boat" head start ensured his victory, bought up a big block of land at Whangaparoa, built a marina and started selling off lots for houses that would overlook the future race course and marina. When he lost the event, the housing part fell apart, the marina went into receivership and we, as visiting yotties had a super good deal from the folks who were running the marina.

It was really paradisiacal with sheep grazing at the edge of the marina car park and lovely, open views over the water as well... all at rock bottom prices. A not to be repeated time, unfortunately.

Jim

[Pelagic]

Agree Jim,

I got to know most of those players like Faye in 2000, as we hosted the LV Owners regularily.

My boss allowed LV's race and marketing organization to use us for the races, so I got a good feel that it was bussiness first and racing was being used as the key marketing tool.