America’s Cup - ETNZ launches 1st AC75 (new)

[jmh2002]

Luna Rossa have launched their AC75 and it seems to incorporate elements of both Team New Zealand and American Magic.

They also have a centreline bulge beneath the hull, but it seems to be more skeg shapped than TNZ's canoe body and their foils have bulbs similar to American Magic.



https://www.sail-world.com/news/222696/?source=rss

[CassidyNZ]

Who’s giving odds that the second American boat will have something other than the flat bottom on their first boat? By now there is surely a realisation that theirs is the odd one out.

Then again, perhaps they have got it right. Who knows?

[jmh2002]

Let's see, early days still. I think Team GBR will launch their boat tomorrow.

It could be as you say that someone has 'got it right' and someone has 'got it wrong' or it also just could be different approaches that are optimised for slightly different conditions but end up being a similar speed overall.

It will be very interesting to see how much of a factor this 'semi-displacement transition period' ends up being?

American Magic definitely does not seem to be optimised for that at all, and their hull shape seems to be a very high drag design at any time that it is in the water.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Who’s giving odds that the second American boat will have something other than the flat bottom on their first boat? By now there is surely a realisation that theirs is the odd one out.

Then again, perhaps they have got it right. Who knows?

Can they not modify an existing hull? If they did would that be considered the second hull?
Seems they have financial difficulties?

[MicHughV]

..I used to think doing 8 knots in my sailboat would earn me bragging rights..ha-ha....

..my fishing boat cruises at around 27 knots....which is going lickety split...so I imagine going almost twice as fast is going to be quite a feat just to hang on...top speed of my fishing boat is about 40 knots....would be embarrassing to have a sailboat pass me..not just pass me, but blow by me...no pun intended.

...while I admire the technology in hull and sail advancement, given that millions of dollars are being poured into this game, I have to admit I miss the old days, when it was still old time mano y mano....no headsets needed...no crash helmets, etc..

..the Kiwi's are excellent sailors (and good rugby players), it's gonna be tough to pry this trophy away from them. May have to call this the "New Zealand Cup" soon..

[MicHughV]

..one must not forget that the real battle of supremacy is being done back at the office...

..modern day 3D AutoCad programs plus a whole host of fluid dynamic models, wind flow dynamics, etc...there is some impressive computing power out there these days.....the on-the-water testing is used just to validate the computer modeling..

...while one can watch the on-the-water exercises, I'm sure that the computer modeling exercises are strictly " verboten" to anyone but team members..

..lastly, there is the " human" factor"....some sailors are simply better than others...or more knowledgeable...in addition to having to be nimble, strong, and fit.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Can they not modify an existing hull? If they did would that be considered the second hull? Seems they have financial difficulties?

No, this is all stipulated by the rules.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Small update: https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...omes-fuselage/

So we will see different foil designs emerge over time

At this point the common belief is that each team's overall design concept is already pretty locked in.

Construction on hull number two will also start soon, so to decide to go in a totally different direction now may prove to be difficult.

As an aside, in past America's Cups where the rules were different and sometimes multiple boats were built it has occasionally happened that hull number one (or another in the series), which was always planned to be obsolete and superseded by hull number two (or three, or four, or five), ended up being faster after all the trials were completed.

Sometimes this was also because 'radical' design ideas were being tried out, which theoretically may have been faster, but the crew couldn't extract the performance or didn't have confidence in the boat - or the radical idea was simply slower in real life on the water.

I think the opportunity for this to happen is far less now, because the computer design modelling and simulation is so much better now.

And you see that TNZ has great confidence in this approach, not even bothering to build a half scale test boat.

I also think that TNZ like this approach to try and preserve some design secrecy to the very last minute, as far as this is possible. They have always had much less budget than the other big teams so have always tried to get a jump ahead via alternative methods.

TNZ used a similar tactic during the last Cup too - radical cyclors (cycle grinders) which some other teams said they explored but couldn't make work, completely hydraulic wing mast trim system all controlled via a 'playstation' type handheld control, etc, etc. This gave them vastly superior hydraulic power (some other teams actually ran put of hydraulic power around the course), and vastly superior wing trim options.

And they arrived last in Bermuda, which everyone said was a huge mistake. They preferred to stay down in NZ, away from the 'circus', and focus on training and development. It all paid off.

I can't wait to see what other tricks TNZ has up their sleeve that we haven't seen yet.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

..one must not forget that the real battle of supremacy is being done back at the office...

...and also in the Board Room, where competative business tactics are applied to gain an advantage for the Crew.

The classic one I remember was in AC 2000 during the LV finals between America One and Prada.

America One twice blew her pretty green Spinnaker in upper end winds while in the lead, but heavily pressed by Prada.

Those failures cost her to loose the LV Challenger spot to the heavily funded Prada, marking the first time a US boat would not be in the Americas Cup.

I was there running a Superyacht and Ameriica One's skipper Paul Cayard became a guest commentator on board during the AC Finals between defender NZ and Prada.

Paul explained that a Spinnaker material had been developed that proved superior in upper wind conditions.

To gain a significant advantage, Prada bought out all the production stock available to prevent America One's sail maker and others from using it.

Those tactics are the less "gentalmanly" side to the races, but AC 2000 in Auckland was a special time with eleven syndicates competing against NZ's first defence.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Can they not modify an existing hull? If they did would that be considered the second hull?
Seems they have financial difficulties?

I’m not sure that large mods are allowed to the first boat and still maintain first-boat status. Maybe they are. But one thing I would bet money on is that mod of that extent would almost surely add weight, something none of the AC designers can stomach.

But American teams are no strangers to copying ideas from other teams. Who will forget the silly little stationary bike that Oracle tacked onto the back of their cat in the last cup.

[MicHughV]

....there is without a doubt, a tremendous amount of skullduggery, spying, lying, and other deviousness going on.

....to wit, Larry Ellison's " surprise " come back from an 8-1 deficit....gimme a break...to this day, I'm convinced something was going on behind those closed shed doors..

...then there is the matter of team " nationality"...these days it is a mish-mash of crew on a boat..

....this whole boondogle started with the so-called Aussie " winged" keel..this was back in 1983...since then it has become a technology game...bigger boats, fancier sails, cats, now foilers..

then there was the 90' Kiwi mono hull vs. Conner's cat debacle...remember 1988/89....40 crew on a boat..???

...etc..etc..etc...this is not a " gentlemen's" sport any more. It is a contest between the world's billionaires and millionaires..may the biggest bank account win !!

..in this regards, I think that typically the world is rooting for the Kiwi's..as they are probably the least funded competitor and have to rely on innovation and moxie.

...it also seems rather absurd, that the cup winner gets to write the rules for the next match. I can remember back in the day, when a cup boat had to be wholly made in the country of origin...including crew...

...these days every last 0.001th knot of current speed, direction, wave height, wind speed, direction, etc, is monitored and analyzed. There is no hope of winning this race without computing power, from actual design to racing.

...as a sailer, it will be fun to watch though.....

[MicHughV]

...I have a question....the Italian boat has these unusual looking nodules on the lower side of the downward sloped wing...anybody know what these might be ??

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...I have a question....the Italian boat has these unusual looking nodules on the lower side of the downward sloped wing...anybody know what these might be ??

I’ve only seen the picture on this thread, and it seems they are only on the Starboard side?
My guess is some kind of temporarily installed sensors for gathering data, but that is just a guess.

[MicHughV]

...and then.... in my past line of work, I was often involved in tank testing, at one time testing water flow against the frictional qualities of different paints...looking at the Italian boat, it is clear that their is some type of paint or other covering " system" employed here...while these boats are intended to ride on their foils, they must also ride on their hulls, albeit temporarily....

...there is much going on here, that the average viewer will not be able to see or otherwise understand......

...yes, a playground for billionaires, a competition for " bragging rights"....

...I suppose some of this technology will eventually drift down to us "po" folks.

The days of " Herreshoff" designed boats and "Skeene's Elements of Yacht Design" are gathering dust in my library of nautical books...

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

....there is without a doubt, a tremendous amount of skullduggery, spying, lying, and other deviousness going on.

Agreed, but it has always been like this.

....to wit, Larry Ellison's " surprise " come back from an 8-1 deficit....gimme a break...to this day, I'm convinced something was going on behind those closed shed doors..

Behind closed shed doors it's commonly accepted that they cheated, with late stage modifications that were somehow, miraculously, and against all odds, approved by the measurers at the last minute (ie: when they figured out they were being trounced by TNZ)

...then there is the matter of team " nationality"...these days it is a mish-mash of crew on a boat..

This is a funny one, because in fact a lot of the teams have always been full of Kiwis and Aussies and other 'ringers' even from way back when.

....this whole boondogle started with the so-called Aussie " winged" keel..this was back in 1983...since then it has become a technology game...bigger boats, fancier sails, cats, now foilers..

No, this is very incorrect. The America's Cup has always been a technology race, and a high stakes race:

- In 1851 schooner America was commissioned for the first challenge. She cost 30,000 USD, a huge sum at the time, and a contractual clause was that she be 'the fastest yacht in the United States' - if not the final purchase could be refused.

- She was rigged with flat-cut, machine-woven cotton sails. Most boats of the era set fuller, looser-footed flax sails. Make no mistake, this was a purpose built high tech cutting edge racing yacht for her day, with no other object but to go to England and win. She clocked a 284nm day run across the Atlantic. This thing was a rocketship.

- Legal battles already started in the late 1800s. They are not a recent problem.

- Design innovation has always been at the forefront. Just look at the magnificent J-Class. When Sir Thomas Liption challenged with Shamrock V in 1930 she had a hollow spruce mast and underwent multiple modifications in the search for more speed.

- Four NYYC syndicates responded with each boat costing more than 500,000 USD - during the depression era! One boat had the world's first 'duralumin' mast. Again, these where no expense spared race boats built by the richest men in the world.

then there was the 90' Kiwi mono hull vs. Conner's cat debacle...remember 1988/89....40 crew on a boat..???

After losing in Fremantle (cheated by the Americans again?) the Kiwis launched a surprise but not unlawful challenge under the deed of gift. Seeking to return to the power and glory of the J-Class they built a 90ft waterline 'modern J' - after a legal battle, the USA were forced to defend or forfeit, and built a catamaran instead of meeting the challenge. Somehow the (American) courts allowed this. Cheating again? (bit of a theme developing here...)

...etc..etc..etc...this is not a " gentlemen's" sport any more. It is a contest between the world's billionaires and millionaires..may the biggest bank account win !!

This was never a 'Gentleman's Sport'. And it was always a contest between the world's billionaires. Nothing has changed. TNZ is pretty much the only exception to this and even they have had some wealthy patrons to literally 'keep the lights on' between sponsorship deals.

..in this regards, I think that typically the world is rooting for the Kiwi's..as they are probably the least funded competitor and have to rely on innovation and moxie.

Yes, but this is the Kiwi way Larry must be fuming after spending so much money and still losing. So much so he threw all his toys out of the sand pit and started his own regatta, lest race the Kiwis again...

...it also seems rather absurd, that the cup winner gets to write the rules for the next match. I can remember back in the day, when a cup boat had to be wholly made in the country of origin...including crew...

Not so much absurd, but a throw back to the fact that this is the America's Cup (not the Olympics) and nobody said anything about it needing to be fair. That being said, TNZ have been pretty unimpressed by some of the shenanigans during the last few Cup cycles where the rule bending and rule changing and unfairness started to become unpalatable. They refused to sign a protocol from the Americans in Bermuda about how the next cup would be run.

Instead they won it fair and square, took it back to NZ, and set about rewriting the rules to become more objective and participant friendly. Even the main challengers have been involved in this process and are somewhat pleased by the impartiality that is trying to be created, but perhaps less so by a new class design which TNZ are expected to have a jump on design wise. That may or may not be true because everything is more open now, eg: no keel skirts, spying is allowed, strict measurement, etc. If not more fair, it is certainly a more level playing field.

...these days every last 0.001th knot of current speed, direction, wave height, wind speed, direction, etc, is monitored and analyzed. There is no hope of winning this race without computing power, from actual design to racing.

True. But that has already been the case in high level sailing for a very long time. Eg: they were already using laser range finders in Fremantle and I expect before too.

...as a sailer, it will be fun to watch though.....

Absolutely!

Some of these points are trying to hit the mark, but some of them are way off base too... (sorry)

I added some comments and I hope you won't be offended

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

..I used to think doing 8 knots in my sailboat would earn me bragging rights..ha-ha....

..my fishing boat cruises at around 27 knots....which is going lickety split...so I imagine going almost twice as fast is going to be quite a feat just to hang on...top speed of my fishing boat is about 40 knots....would be embarrassing to have a sailboat pass me..not just pass me, but blow by me...no pun intended.

...while I admire the technology in hull and sail advancement, given that millions of dollars are being poured into this game, I have to admit I miss the old days, when it was still old time mano y mano....no headsets needed...no crash helmets, etc..

..the Kiwi's are excellent sailors (and good rugby players), it's gonna be tough to pry this trophy away from them. May have to call this the "New Zealand Cup" soon..

Since the cup is named after the yacht that won it the first time, if you're going to attempt to change the name perhaps more appropriate to call it the Dolphin cup, the name of the kiwi boat.