America’s Cup - ETNZ launches 1st AC75 (new)

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

well, whatever happens, I hope we go back to more traditional sailing. A race that only lasts 20-30 minutes doesn't seem like much bang for your $100 million investment.

Not sure, if we've seen the end of the foils though....I guess once you've flown a Boeing 747, a prop plane seems antiquated, but, something more traditional, in my view, might attract more entries...

There’s no way at all that the AC75s will not be used in the next AC. Absolutely no way. This class is here to stay.

It’s no surprise at all that the two teams that came up with the foiling monohull concept (are you kidding, when the first rendered videos came out I’m sure I wasn’t the only one thinking that there’s no way that these boats would fly and stay upright in the real world) and developed the rule were the two teams in the final.

TNZ and LRPP first boats were in the ballpark and their second boats were right in one (fast) corner. Both got rid of the boom and brought the sails, not just covering flaps, all the way to the deck (TNZ lowered their deck for a bit more sail area and lower COE - just one of the myriad optimisations they made). Both teams figured out early the hull end plate effect and how to fly them to best effect. Both considered how to get them foiling at the bottom end of the range. Both teams maximised aerodynamics - TNZ was the first and best at hiding their crew from the wind.

Whereas AM and TIUK both got their first boats completely wrong. Inexplicably, TIUK persisted in the wrong direction with their second boat. That fat keel was ridiculous and their rig development was stunted - as if they barely considered it. AM changed direction with their second boat but for whatever reason didn’t have the team structure in place to figure out how to optimise it and sail it well (a team culture, or lack of team culture problem?).

Whenever we had video of the helmsmen, you could see Barker fighting the AM wheel, while all the others were literally using their fingertips to control the wheel. That indicates that AM hadn’t figured out how to balance the rudder T-foil with the main foils - lots of load, hence drag, hence closer to cavitation at higher speeds. It also meant the helmsman couldn’t have other controls that they were responsible for. As an example, Burling trimmed the traveller.

Still lots of development in this class and I really hope they continue for at least the next two challenges (first one could be next year!).

[cj88]

I'm happy with the overall direction of the foiling boats. If they can stick with that class of boat they can continue to develop and understand them better and I would like to think we could potentially see more entrants. I also think that the rules need some finetuning given what we have learnt but that is to be expected. It's just a pity we didn't get all the races leading up to the cup that were planned for as that would have given all the teams more time to get up to speed with the boats and how to sail them to their optimum. Anyway, the last few races delivered some excitement and good racing.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I would like to see more racing though. Best of 9, 11, or 13 maybe?

But I don't think it would have changed the result.

ETNZ were getting faster and more confident with each new day and in the end finished it in dominant style in what should have been conditions more advantageous to LRPP.

I’m sure we get what you mean but this last AC was “best out of 13”

I sure miss the old days of “triangle, sausage, triangle”, testing boats on all points of sail but these foilers don’t really allow for that, they only have 2 points of sail. Making the courses longer, extending race time beyond 25 minutes, don’t know really because then the processions just get more boring.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I’m sure we get what you mean but this last AC was “best out of 13”

I sure miss the old days of “triangle, sausage, triangle”, testing boats on all points of sail but these foilers don’t really allow for that, they only have 2 points of sail. Making the courses longer, extending race time beyond 25 minutes, don’t know really because then the processions just get more boring.

Ooops! Yes! - first to 9, 11, or 13!

I agree that the races seem long enough already, let's just have more of them. Processions are boring.

And I think they will tweak the class to solve the foiling in light air problem.

I guess there are a few options there:

- higher wind limit (restricts racing)
- 2 sets of rigs, big & small (adds expense)
- 2 sets of wings, big & small (adds expense)

Or maybe relaxing the rule regarding the wing flaps so that they can be properly extended or retracted to add or subtract area.

Some teams were toying with this already, in a limited way, within the rule that stipulates that the flap can only pivot around a fixed point (see Mozzy Sails video).

This may be the most economic option. Yes there will be some more development around this, but it won't be 'duplicated' development like would occur with two sets of things.

It also should mean that if the wind drops during a race they won't be caught out on the wrong wings. They will be able to add area on the fly, while sailing.

That sounds interesting to me.

My 2 cents

[MicHughV]

sniff.....I miss the spinnaker days.....sniff...swept under the carpet by a foil...sniff...

I am....admittedly......old school...I prefer my sailing be done without having to wear a helmet and other protective gear...bikini's and shorts on my boat if you please....

[Jamme]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Making the courses longer, extending race time beyond 25 minutes, don’t know really because then the processions just get more boring.

... Also you don’t want the grinders to die of a heart attack... Have you seen how often they were at 99% heart rate capacity? Amazing. Anti-doping tests will become the rule even more I guess!

[Pelagic]

I think the evolution of this design boils down to a sustainable business plan.
Cassidy misunderstood me when I "guessed " that some of the team were getting paid peanuts . This was not directed at Dalton but what happens when taleted individuas in amateur sports are hired to do something they would do for nothing .

Indeed, he mentioned that Dalton was already trying to improve on team renumeration by having better paying venues, with higher adverising value.

I see the bussiness plan evolving this way:

The foiling monos will keep improving in wind versatility, handling, safety and flight control to offer exciting 30 minute match races.

They will try and fit 3 match races per day of 2 boats, or 2 races of 4 boats

Challenger regattas will go worldwide, including a 2nd NZ team as a challenger to keep improvement standards high

Coverage continues to get better with drones covering each boat and flight data streaming live.

This will lead to the penultimate defence of AC at the Defenders chosen location about every 4 years with Challenger Series every year continuing to pay the bills and keep the racing and deveopment team fully employed

A Guild will be formed for team members so that they receive fair compensation for their work and of course the stars will be able to earn extra thru product advertising .

Yes, the Billionaires will still be the primary sponsor, but at a sustainable level thru year round competition and development, so that an improved model comes out each year, in accordance with the devlopment rules.

Basically a F1 formula, now that these boats have speed and excitement for the non sailors .

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think the evolution of this design boils down to a sustainable business plan.
Cassidy misunderstood me when I "guessed " that some of the team were getting paid peanuts . This was not directed at Dalton but what happens when taleted individuas in amateur sports are hired to do something they would do for nothing .

Indeed, he mentioned that Dalton was already trying to improve on team renumeration by having better paying venues, with higher adverising value.

I see the bussiness plan evolving this way:

The foiling monos will keep improving in wind versatility, handling, safety and flight control to offer exciting 30 minute match races.

They will try and fit 3 match races per day of 2 boats, or 2 races of 4 boats

Challenger regattas will go worldwide, including a 2nd NZ team as a challenger to keep improvement standards high

Coverage continues to get better with drones covering each boat and flight data streaming live.

This will lead to the penultimate defence of AC at the Defenders chosen location about every 4 years with Challenger Series every year continuing to pay the bills and keep the racing and deveopment team fully employed

A Guild will be formed for team members so that they receive fair compensation for their work and of course the stars will be able to earn extra thru product advertising .

Yes, the Billionaires will still be the primary sponsor, but at a sustainable level thru year round competition and development, so that an improved model comes out each year, in accordance with the devlopment rules.

Basically a F1 formula, now that these boats have speed and excitement for the non sailors .

IMHO this is a superb post. ( but I've had beer lol )thanks Pelagic

Not sure that all your ideas are right but I think TNZ's business model relies on patriotism over profits for the workers. No different than McDonalds.
I hope a guild or union gets formed for the workers but since I've watched AC cup races it's been a designers competition. If you disagree with this please provide evidence of the last time a sailing team has won over a designer team. Probably has happened in a challenger series but in the AC?


Of course the pandemic has had a huge impact.



If there is a 2nd NZ AC team would need a big sponsor.


Yes this format appeals to the t*****r generation but being raised on lead mines I think there are far moresubtleties in displacement boats racing & for me the racing was more interesting. No question the 36th edition was still interesting though.

Understand that no non-sailors want to sit thru 3+ hrs of nuthn happening to their mind. It's all about the audience.

Think I'd be picking a helmsman from foilers or skiffs rather than any displacement types if I was a billionaire funding a professional sailing team.
I wish ! lol.
Have to say heartfelt thanks for the Italian sailing team. They did themselves proud IMO, not so much the management person that barred Ben Ainslie frm Prada Cup final presser. Unbelievable! Didnt think for a minute sailing team had anything to do with that.
Hope The DOG challenge happens.

[Jim Cate]

I think there are far more subtleties in displacement boats racing & for me the racing was more interesting.

Subtleties? More in 12 meters? I don't think so... it's just that the tweaks on a 12 meter are similar to those in your own sailing experience, and so you spot them and relate to them and that stimulates your interest. The tweaks in the foilers are hidden from your view, and the decisions are made so quickly on board that you are often not aware of most (any?) of the input data that drive them. The very complexity of the foilers mandates subtle management at an unprecedented degree in sailing.

I'm ok with your preference, but not with the idea that the foilers don't require kinda superhuman reaction times and the ability to plan and execute complicated maneuvers at high and dangerous speeds. Not the racing that I participated in and enjoyed, but high level racing at its finest (given the rather arcane set of rules imposed by the deed of gift).

Jim

[Pelagic]

Yes Jim and the speed with which a foiling racer must process and make decisions during a match, is more akin to a WW2 dog fight.

I wonder if part of the next evolution for the helsman will be heads up displays on their visors

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Yes Jim and the speed with which a foiling racer must process and make decisions during a match, is more akin to a WW2 dog fight.

I wonder if part of the next evolution for the helsman will be heads up displays on their visors

It's hard to underestimate the technical achievements embodied here. I recall my amazement in learning in the late 90's that some racing boats had been developed that could go faster than wind speed. Now - 6 times wind speed. In the 50's there was the wringer washer. Now the washing machine sensors the fabrics types and washes accordingly ... Oh but I enjoy winding the wringer handle some may have said"

Except not even scifi has imagined what yachts can do now.

I think these boats are a human technical achievement in progress as if going from travel above the speed of sound to above the speed of light.

A near future step, not for sport, but for practical application, can be that these kinds of boats will be able to be controlled with AI "flight" controller and nav software, similar to that currently being applied to the specialist heavy lift drones currently being proven. This (AI drone) software accepts input at 1000 times/second from each of 50 sensors and gets 50 functional devices to respond.

I like my sailing ... but also being able to foil across the harbor with the push of some buttons and some other tweaks, in my $ million AI controlled 36ftr for picnic at the island! Yeah, bring it on.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Subtleties? More in 12 meters? I don't think so... it's just that the tweaks on a 12 meter are similar to those in your own sailing experience, and so you spot them and relate to them and that stimulates your interest. The tweaks in the foilers are hidden from your view, and the decisions are made so quickly on board that you are often not aware of most (any?) of the input data that drive them. The very complexity of the foilers mandates subtle management at an unprecedented degree in sailing.

I'm ok with your preference, but not with the idea that the foilers don't require kinda superhuman reaction times and the ability to plan and execute complicated maneuvers at high and dangerous speeds. Not the racing that I participated in and enjoyed, but high level racing at its finest (given the rather arcane set of rules imposed by the deed of gift).

Jim

Ok I didn't explain what I meant very well. No argument that the decision times are very different & the complexities are very different. But there is a whole different set of complexities with downwind sailing with boats that dont have the apparent wind within 15o of heading or whatever it is on the AC75 wether sailing the upwind or downwind legs.
Agree that my preference is coloured by experience & even the older blokes love the AC 75's but I still found the epic 12 metre battles more interesting. ( Perhaps its the rose tinted glasses of youth )

Yes the foil management is probably more complicated than putting your Kites dirty wind on the other lead mine but I loved seeing the leading boats kite collapse more than I do watching a foil cant angle.
Have to admit I liked riding my windsurfer more than racing my P class. ( kinda like an Optimist ) so there is no halting progress.
Nowhere did I say that they dont require superhuman reaction times. In fact the reaction times are obviously much shorter which is why you will see the AC increasingly being a young mans game. I expect it will be like an F1 or motoGP age bracket soon for the drivers.
I liked the longer afterguards discussions in the lead mines but now they simply have less time.

I miss the interplay between boats you see in the world match racing tour but accept that AC is more a designers comp than a sailors.
Anyway we are still both transfixed, bring on the D.O.G, challenge.
Maybe I'm just a GOB ( grumpy old b.....)
Interesting reading all the different reactions to the AC 75's
I'm missing the racing already

[MicHughV]

I just wonder how this foiling concept will transfer to your basic sailboat. Yes, I know some smaller foiling race boats are already out there, but I'm talking your basic mom and pop type sailboat.
These AC75's sail in relatively calm waters only.....it's an F1 car....not suited for a dirt road....
The entire AC concept has moved into a technology/designer event..foils, double mainsails, etc, etc..but seems far removed from " sailing"....it's become more a case of "flying".....not being grumpy, as that is just the way it is...many regular "old fashioned" sailboat racing still to be found.

For sure, it is a "spectator" event, just like F1 racing, no other sailboat race has this type of "spectator" support. It's a "showcase" event, for sailors and non-sailors, so I can see and understand the concept of fast boats, just like fast cars, nobody wants to see station wagons roaring around a track either.

But....for me.....some of the magic of the AC......has gone missing..

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I wonder if part of the next evolution for the helsman will be heads up displays on their visors

I'm not sure if they are using them in the current Cup event but heads up displays were already used in the sunglasses during past events.

Maybe it's old tech already now...

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

The entire AC concept has moved into a technology/designer event...

You keep writing this (again and again for some reason...) and I keep reminding you that it has always been a technology/designer event, even right back since the first event in 1851.

Do I need to quote my post with a list of facts again to refute your statement?