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Pelagic · 21-03-2021, 20:35

Yes, I envision wide hydrodynamic foil sections retractable into the hull for lift and stability in semi-displacement mode .

Think of it like a wide bodied trimaran whose pontoons adjust to suit conditions

wingssail · 21-03-2021, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I just wonder how this foiling concept will transfer to your basic sailboat. Yes, I know some smaller foiling race boats are already out there, but I'm talking your basic mom and pop type sailboat.
These AC75's sail in relatively calm waters only.....it's an F1 car....not suited for a dirt road....
The entire AC concept has moved into a technology/designer event..foils, double mainsails, etc, etc..but seems far removed from " sailing"....it's become more a case of "flying".....not being grumpy, as that is just the way it is...many regular "old fashioned" sailboat racing still to be found.

For sure, it is a "spectator" event, just like F1 racing, no other sailboat race has this type of "spectator" support. It's a "showcase" event, for sailors and non-sailors, so I can see and understand the concept of fast boats, just like fast cars, nobody wants to see station wagons roaring around a track either.

But....for me.....some of the magic of the AC......has gone missing..

"some of the magic of the AC......has gone missing.."

Yes, I missed the crew work and the sail changing of the ol days, the glorious sight of two tall triangles crossing tacks on the horizon..and if that comes back I'll love it. But I loved this AC as well, I didn't feel any loss of the AC magic. It's all sailing.

As for foils on cruising boats: well, mom and pop sailboats won't have them too soon. In fact mom and pop cruising boats don't need them or sails either for that matter. Just give them a bow thruster, roll away mainsail, and a nice place for the poodle to hang out as they motor to the next port and they will be fine.

But builders will put foils on cruising sailboats and the bleeding edge folks with the money to go there will buy them. We'll gain something and lose something. Speed for comfort. What a trade off.

Eventually an elegant solution will appear (not Callahan's) and in some amount of time, I won't predeict when, people will have the option of a fast cruising boat with foils and reasonable comfort (or they will put up with the noise and discomfort for the sheer speed).

Times change, progress cannot be stopped.

jmh2002 · 24-03-2021, 19:25

With the added proviso of still having the following event in 2024 held back in NZ even if ETNZ lose to Ineos UK in a Deed of Gift match in the Solent in 2022 this all now seems like a no brainer to keep momentum and continuity going for the Cup.

If successful it may even set a precedent for similar Deed of Gift events to be held in the intervening 2 years between the normal 4 year America's Cup cycle.

The Cup gets to go on tour, and the Challenger gets to have a high profile event in their country, but all without the (original) Defender losing the possibility of an event on their home waters.

Is this a win-win for everyone? It's certainly an interesting idea. I must admit that I didn't consider this possible turn of events.

America's Cup: Team UK willing to defend Auld Mug in Auckland in 2024 if they beat Team NZ in deed of gift challenge

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americ...gift-challenge

America's Cup: Deed of gift challenge too good for Team NZ to ignore

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americ...m-nz-to-ignore

Compass790 · 25-03-2021, 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

With the added proviso of still having the following event in 2024 held back in NZ even if ETNZ lose to Ineos UK in a Deed of Gift match in the Solent in 2022 this all now seems like a no brainer to keep momentum and continuity going for the Cup.

If successful it may even set a precedent for similar Deed of Gift events to be held in the intervening 2 years between the normal 4 year America's Cup cycle.

The Cup gets to go on tour, and the Challenger gets to have a high profile event in their country, but all without the (original) Defender losing the possibility of an event on their home waters.

Is this a win-win for everyone? It's certainly an interesting idea. I must admit that I didn't consider this possible turn of events.

America's Cup: Team UK willing to defend Auld Mug in Auckland in 2024 if they beat Team NZ in deed of gift challenge

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americ...gift-challenge

America's Cup: Deed of gift challenge too good for Team NZ to ignore

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americ...m-nz-to-ignore

I'd say well it's complicated.
For instance Sir Jim says Ineos can build another boat & TNZ cant for D.O.G. challenge in his mind. Seems sporting to him lol

I'd say Dalton has dealt with enough billionaires to look at the fine print.

Also agreeing to have their defence in Auckland should they beat TNZ means nothing as the holder sets the rules.
They might have some interesting changes in mind.

Look at the history of what the NYYC did with having the rulebook.
However as the Aussies proved it isnt insurmountable with Australia 11.

Agree Ineos needs a better boat but I suspect so will TNZ after Ineos has had time to co-opt all their smart ideas.
The best thing Sir Jim could do is buy Berlasconi as I imagine he is exempt from the nationality rule being English.
Failing that hire a hacker to steal TNZ design secrets.
It might actually come down to the sailors if the design & rules stay the same for a few cycles. The AC 75's wind shadow on the small courses has such a big effect starting may be everything if the VMG's are within a knot at a WAG.
I'm sure the A.I. has that pegged.

Still miss the 12 metres but still transfixed by the circus that is the AC

CassidyNZ · 25-03-2021, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

With the added proviso of still having the following event in 2024 held back in NZ even if ETNZ lose to Ineos UK in a Deed of Gift match in the Solent in 2022 this all now seems like a no brainer to keep momentum and continuity going for the Cup.

If successful it may even set a precedent for similar Deed of Gift events to be held in the intervening 2 years between the normal 4 year America's Cup cycle.

The Cup gets to go on tour, and the Challenger gets to have a high profile event in their country, but all without the (original) Defender losing the possibility of an event on their home waters.

Is this a win-win for everyone? It's certainly an interesting idea. I must admit that I didn't consider this possible turn of events.

If ever there was a situation in which local knowledge plays a critical role, it’s sailing around Isle of White with tidal range of 2 metres plus, four high tides a day and accompanying tidal streams in and out of the Solent, not to mention that if Sir Ben is true to his word, the race will emulate the original “round the island” race meaning at least half of the course is essentially in open sea.

And all of that, literally, in Ben Ainslie’s back yard. He lives on the island. Of course he wants a Deed of Gift race in the Solent.

If I was making that decision for ETNZ my response would “Yeah, right!!”. The suggestion has, in my opinion, no upside for ETNZ and the deck heavily stacked towards Sir Ben. Win-win? I don’t think so.

jmh2002 · 25-03-2021, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

If I was making that decision for ETNZ my response would “Yeah, right!!”. The suggestion has, in my opinion, no upside for ETNZ and the deck heavily stacked towards Sir Ben. Win-win? I don’t think so.

All valid points (all of your post), but even if ETNZ was to lose they would have still have a guaranteed event back in NZ (their home waters) to try and win it back again. So 2 guaranteed and funded events in 4 years instead of 1. That's a lot easier package to sell I believe.

And I think those are the type of win-win points that are being discussed.

I think the point that is not being given enough weight by the general public is that 4 years is a long time and momentum begins to be lost - momentum has already been lost, and it's only been a matter of days. Even just in this forum thread here you can note how interest appears to have quickly disappeared.

But the Team(s) still need preserving, salaries still need to be paid, and sponsors still need to feel that they are getting sufficient return on their investment - and this is even more the case now in the post-covid world.

Let's not forget that there was a reason that the 'dream team' was lost to poaching by Alinghi - and it's because ETNZ didn't have any money left at that time so nobody had a job/salary after that Cup cycle ended.

The opposite situation is that I imagine that many key members of the current Luna Rossa team will still be on a retainer, even if they haven't yet renegotiated a full contract for the future.

I believe that is also the case with ETNZ now too.

ETNZ is in a different position to the other challengers who have billionaire backers bank rolling their campaigns. ETNZ is commercially funded and more commercial exposure should give rise to more commerical sponsorship opportunities.

So I think ETNZ is in the position of needing to walk a pretty thin tight rope of trying to balance keeping hold of the cup / running a defense in NZ / continuing to fund themselves / etc.

Not securing enough funding and enough reasons for the Team to continue to exist may well mean that the Cup ends up being lost by ETNZ anyway. That's always a risk. As are no challengers turning up too.

For example, in other sailing, several major French sailing teams folded last year when their sponsors said 'no, we can't do this anymore in the current climate' - so their new builds were cancelled, the existing boat(s) were put up for sale and the crew disbanded. Boom, multi-year campaigns just gone.

So a major Cup event every 2 years instead of every 4 seems to be helpful in that respect, as well as just to raise the profile of the Cup overall, as an event in it's own right.

But without going down the Larry Ellison route of turning it into a SailGP style regatta event - that's not the Cup, the Cup is more special than that.

But funding reality is still funding reality - the money doesn't just fall out of the sky.

Maybe the Solent event should be a secondary or exhibition type event instead of an actual Cup match - I don't know - but that also needs to be balanced with having something serious enough at stake to make it worthwhile, and a secondary or exhibition type event may not be sufficient. The Cup itself carries a lot of cache.

If there wasn't the question of commercial funding it would be much easier to say 'no way, forget it, see you in four years!'.

But being a realist I can easily see and understand ETNZ's / Grant Dalton's logic for even entertaining such a suggestion in the first place. He is a master at raising funds, he always has been (some of us may remember his Whitbread campaigns) so it will be very clear in his mind what is needed to keep ETNZ a Cup winning team.

And there is the talk of dynasty too, of not just looking from one cycle to the next but beyond that to future events and challenges (or hopefully defenses!), and wider to fostering talent, and solidifing ETNZ as permanent long term sailing, design, and technology entity.

This is no different to Rugby in NZ (and elsewhere) where there is a growth system, where talent is spotted and fostered, and brought up through the ranks until it reaches All Black level.

But even so, some of those potential All Blacks are still lost along the way. Because many of them are from Maori and Pasifika backgrounds and have extended family and community reponsibilities.

To them the 'chance' to be an All Black 'at some stage' is amazing, but the 'reality' is the availability of a well paid contract 'right now' from a French club team - that feeds your family and secures the future - dreams of being an All Black do not.

As someone who was a professional sailor a long time ago I know what that's like. Chasing dreams is alright for a while, but security and the future start to call at some stage. It's very easy to go from hero to zero in professional sports, and for the phone to just stop ringing...

Anyway, I may have rambled but I think it's all interesting food for thought

PS: Interestingly enough this was also the subject of the latest Rule69Blog, aptly titled "Musical Chairs":

(which will be the game that is currently being played by the team members, or though somewhat less so than in the past with the new and much stricter nationality rule)

https://rule69blog.wordpress.com/202...usical-chairs/

Compass790 · 25-03-2021, 21:02

Anyway, I may have rambled but I think it's all interesting food for thought

PS: Interestingly enough this was also the subject of the latest Rule69Blog:

Musical Chairs: https://rule69blog.wordpress.com/202...usical-chairs/ ( Quote )

All good points you raise, didnt find it a ramble at all.
Missing it already are we?
Not an uncommon feeling in NZ.
Yes ETNZ needs a billionaire sponsor.
Will be interesting to see how it pans out. I think Dalton & co. can smell a rat if one is in the woodpile, at least I hope so.

(

jmh2002 · 25-03-2021, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Compass790

All good points you raise, didnt find it a ramble at all.
Missing it already are we?
Not an uncommon feeling in NZ.

Thanks, and yup!

CassidyNZ · 26-03-2021, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

All valid points (all of your post), but even if ETNZ was to lose they would have still have a guaranteed event back in NZ (their home waters) to try and win it back again. So 2 guaranteed and funded events in 4 years instead of 1. That's a lot easier package to sell I believe.

If you lose the Cup, the impetus moves to the new holder. You get to “participate” in the new rule-making regime but you don’t get to make the rules. Losing the Cup is easy, getting it back is not. It took us 14 years (and an absolute mountain of sponsor funding) to win it back. I reckon sponsors would be more prone to bail if Dalton frivolously gave the Cup away in a reckless DOG race. So I’m sceptical of your “easier package to sell” view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

But the Team(s) still need preserving, salaries still need to be paid, and sponsors still need to feel that they are getting sufficient return on their investment - and this is even more the case now in the post-covid world.

Was I mistaken when I heard that ETNZ had been given $5m by Ardern to pay wages and salaries for the next wee while to keep the team together? Maybe all the banter in the press is all garbage. I also heard somewhere that a tech (gaming) billionaire in the US had made it known that he would throw his financial support in with ETNZ. Oh yes, it was on TV1 News

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/spor...am-new-zealand

Emirates have thus-far not indicated withdrawing their sponsorship, nor has Toyota and both of them have hung in for, what was it? four losses before a win? They’re not sidling off into the middle distance anytime soon. Not while “their team” is at the top of their game. But give it all away and that game changes.

We have the Cup. We have to do everything legitimate and ethical to keep it. Every other holder in history has done that. Why should ETNZ be different? The longer they keep the Cup the better their sponsorships will be.

At least that’s my opinion, yours seemingly differs.

fxykty · 26-03-2021, 03:11

My understanding is that the proposed DOG match is about money and money alone and would be more like an exhibition. Of course, still a race and setting the AC at risk, though the agreement guarantees that the next AC match must be hosted in Auckland regardless of who wins the match.

Another reason for the DOG match in the UK is to raise awareness of the event and the AC75s in a major market in their time zone. That was definitely missing with the cup in New Zealand, especially with Covid restrictions.

Pelagic · 26-03-2021, 19:01

I agree fxykty, but they are making a mistake by not inviting Italy and US to this regatta.

This is a Marketing test to see what kind of draw they can muster in a more populated time zone.

I am sure they will reconsider as Italy especially is not happy to be excluded .

CassidyNZ · 27-03-2021, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxykty

My understanding is that the proposed DOG match is about money and money alone and would be more like an exhibition. Of course, still a race and setting the AC at risk, though the agreement guarantees that the next AC match must be hosted in Auckland regardless of who wins the match.

Another reason for the DOG match in the UK is to raise awareness of the event and the AC75s in a major market in their time zone. That was definitely missing with the cup in New Zealand, especially with Covid restrictions.

Guaranteeing that the match happens in your home town is not the same as holding the Cup. Once you give others the benefit of making the rules (which is what happens when you lose), you get the draconian nonsense like Oracle foisted on ETNZ in Bermuda. ETNZ was singled out for specifically tough conditions in an effort to neutralise them in the Cup racing. Happily that didn’t work because we had a “secret weapon” then. We don’t have that anymore.

Raising awareness of AC in England is good for the English. How does it help ETNZ? In my opinion the DOG event represents only risk to us, no reward. I can understand Dalton taking the event offshore for financial reasons but a DOG event is simply best-of-three and the chances of losing are way bigger than a structured challenger series environment. If the challenger in a DOG event has one small, even temporary advantage, the defender has no window of opportunity to catch up. Remember Oracle v Alinghi? The first wing sail in AC history and Alinghi were literally dead in the water with a normal customary rig. Two races and it was all over.

No, I still believe that ETNZ needs to do whatever they can (legitimately and ethically) to hold onto the Cup. If their rules have to be used to neutralise the giant billionaire budgets then so be it. But use your rule-making advantage to win. Don’t hand it to the other side.

jmh2002 · 27-03-2021, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

At least that’s my opinion, yours seemingly differs.

I'm trying to be open minded and see and understand and appreciate the different situations and considerations that ETNZ must be facing.

I think different options are at least good to consider, to weigh up the pros and cons regarding how best to move forward.

There is no personal grudge or attacks on opinion from my side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Guaranteeing that the match happens in your home town is not the same as holding the Cup. Once you give others the benefit of making the rules (which is what happens when you lose), you get the draconian nonsense like Oracle foisted on ETNZ in Bermuda. ETNZ was singled out for specifically tough conditions in an effort to neutralise them in the Cup racing. Happily that didn’t work because we had a “secret weapon” then. We don’t have that anymore.

All fair concerns, but I don't think Dalton is that naive.

And whilst we as the general public haven't seen any conditions at this early stage I don't think that the normal privileges of the winner will apply in this situation.

So I wouldn't expect the goal posts being moved.

Instead I would fully expect an entire framework to be arranged in advance for both events, 2022 and 2024, ie: that they are effectively all part of one package.

As we see, this is already the case with the class, the AC75 having been agreed upon for at least two more Cup cycles.

That is my understanding at this time regarding how all of this is being proposed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

No, I still believe that ETNZ needs to do whatever they can (legitimately and ethically) to hold onto the Cup. If their rules have to be used to neutralise the giant billionaire budgets then so be it. But use your rule-making advantage to win. Don’t hand it to the other side.

Agreed. And although it may initially seem at odds with the current suggestions, I think that's exactly what Dalton has in mind in terms of a long term vision - locking in a strategy and a framework for multiple Cup cycles. Naturally there needs to be some give and take to achieve this though.