Brokers question

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Of course not , nor my lawnmower, but then the boat cost a little more than either.
Maybe you can find the boat you want in a week or so, and maybe you can get the selling Brokers to respond.
My search took months and as I was out of State, but close my Broker set up appts of boats for me to see on weekends, set up the Escrow accounts, recommended a good Title search agency, recommended several good surveyors that I picked from etc.
Yes she got half of the sales commission, but that commission was going to be paid anyway, just if I didn't have a Broker, the sellers Broker was happy as they got it all.
So what do you see as a downside to having a buyers Broker?

On edit, if you don't have a buyers Broker, then the only "expert" is working for the seller, unless of course you think your an expert


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

ROFL... that's like calling a used car salesman an expert... expert at getting to pocket your cash maybe.
I'm with Monte..

[a64pilot]

You guys still haven't told me how a buyers broker cost you anything.

I am absolutely sure there are crooks, I met a few I wouldn't trust at all, that is why you have to do your due diligence and find someone whom you think you can trust, but salesmen and women in general I just don't like, most of the time I know more about the product they are trying to sell than they do.
But as always, trust, but verify


But, how do you lose money with a buyers broker? You think you can get that 5%? If boat is listed with another Broker, 10% is gone. Now just like a house I'm sure that is negotiable, expensive houses and I'm sure boat to, the seller pays less commission.


On edit, the difference between a buyers broker and you hiring someone to help find you a boat is who pays, Brokers fees come out of the seller, who is paying the commission, if there are two brokers, they split it.
Someone you hire, you pay direct

[monte]

I don't think buyers brokers are a bad idea in some cases. In many cases they might help less experienced buyers get a better deal or see something they might have missed.
But in some cases, they also want to make wages, and put that above the interests of the buyer (who would think!?) possibly talking them into a boat that doesn't suit, or a price that's unreasonable, or overlooking some pertinent details, all for the sale and following commission. There's also the possibility of collusion between the buying and selling broker which may not be above board, as well as the possibility of being gazzumped when you do find a good deal (buyers broker rings a friend and tells him to put an offer in just below yours).
Also the selling broker stands to earn half his normal wage if dealing with a buyers broker, so there's little incentive for him to negotiate with the seller on your behalf when he could earn much more by picking his customers.
An example would be a broker has a yacht listed for $100K and stands to make $10K from the listing. A buyer coming to him with an offer of $90K will give him $9K in the pocket. A buyers broker with the same offer will give him $4.5K in the pocket. Do you think he is going to get on the phone and massage (yes I meant massage, not message) the seller into accepting the offer if he stands to make $9K? Of course he is. Do you think he is going to even email the seller when he receives the offer from a broker, and be ok with making $4.5K instead of his 10%, or would he rather wait till he is contacted directly by a buyer. Maybe he has to wait 6 months, a year, whatever, it's no skin off his nose. Sure the seller will be pissed off if he knew. There's a lot of sellers that experienced this type of scenario. Later finding out their broker wasn't forewarning reasonable offers or turning down flat potential buyers.
I'm just playing devils advocate here, not all transactions go like this and sometimes a buyers broker is a good idea.
On the subject of car brokers, I did look into that option on one new car purchase a few years ago, but found my usual method of writing to all the dealers within 100 miles requesting a tender gave me a better deal than the brokers offer.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

On edit, the difference between a buyers broker and you hiring someone to help find you a boat is who pays, Brokers fees come out of the seller, who is paying the commission, if there are two brokers, they split it.
Someone you hire, you pay direct

That's the part I don't get.. hiring someone to find your boat..!!
Damn.. that for me is the fun bit.. for example..
1999 Dec.. Just snowed, I was living in a trailer park in Coventry temporarily and it was cold as ^*ck.. one night I logged on and started looking at boats.. saw a Cheoy Lee 36 for sale in SMX and I lusted..
Checked my finances.. £32K in the black
Contacted the ex down in London (we'd lived aboard together around the Med for 4 yrs) to see if it'd be okay to leave my bikes and car in the garage, quit my job and was airborne in 5 days...
The CL was in reality a piece of crap so called my Agency (work) and said I could well be back in a fortnight so keep me in mind.. caught a flight to Antigua.. hotel in St Johns and daily excursions on the local transport to the various spots like Jolly Harbour etc.. and party the nights away.. returned to SMX and stuck a note in the Mailbox saying I was buying and could be found at the Soggy Dollar between1200 and 1700 or Lal's Bar 1900 till 2330..
Had a room in Phillipsburg and the last bus from Lal's, opposite the airport back then.. was just before midnight..
Anyway.. 3 days before my ticket needs using a little French guy appeared during my 1st Mt Gay and said... 'You want to buy a boat..?'
Turned out to be a Bendi 321 '87 for $25K.. had a look.. had a sail.. said I'd buy...
Then the snag.. French boat.. so I insisted a broker deal with the paperwork.. its a real performance compared to the UK where its cash for keys more or less.
Now the little guy turned out to be on a 5% commission from the owner.. and the broker in Marigot wanted 5% for the paperwork.. basically fill in some forms in French and send them to France with the bill of sale for de-reg.. lotta money for two bits of paper and licking a stamp.
Basically told em 2.5% each was better than 0.0% when I walked... it had been for sale for a year.. the kid had been living aboard and doing off the beach charters and partying.. he was ready for home..
So.. I had a ball, got a boat, 6mths in the Caribe and the most awesome first solo trans-Atlantic crossing to boot..
What incentive have I to hire someone...

[a64pilot]

I had typed out a long response explaining everything then clicked the back arrow to get the thread starters name, and of course poof it's all gone.

But the gist of it is, for people like Mr Reed and myself, who this is our first sailboat purchase,. and we don't live where the boats are and therefore don't have the support network of knowing which agencies / mechanics / surveyors to chose and which to avoid
don't discount the usefulness of a good buyers broker.
For people like I assume you Monty and I know Boatie who have been around sailboats since they had dirt floors, and have owned several for years, well then a buyers broker may be a waste of time.

For instance, if I were to buy another aircraft, I wouldn't hire an A&P/IA to do an inspection / survey, because I am an A&P/IA, but sailboat expert? I'm not.

[a64pilot]

Other thing I want to bring out was by the time I finally bought, I was tired of looking, I liked the boat and was going to offer like 10% to 15% lower than asking and be done with it.
My Broker knew about the seller, knew how long the boat had been on the market, the pressure he had been putting on the selling Broker to get it sold etc. and talked me into going in with what I thought was an insultingly low offer.
He took my offer, she saved me about 25K.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I had typed out a long response explaining everything then clicked the back arrow to get the thread starters name, and of course poof it's all gone.

But the gist of it is, for people like Mr Reed and myself, who this is our first sailboat purchase,. and we don't live where the boats are and therefore don't have the support network of knowing which agencies / mechanics / surveyors to chose and which to avoid
don't discount the usefulness of a good buyers broker.
For people like I assume you Monty and I know Boatie who have been around sailboats since they had dirt floors, and have owned several for years, well then a buyers broker may be a waste of time.

For instance, if I were to buy another aircraft, I wouldn't hire an A&P/IA to do an inspection / survey, because I am an A&P/IA, but sailboat expert? I'm not.

Hmmm... could be a useful fall back earner when I quit sailing in 20yrs or so...

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Mark Stillwell

As darylat8750 noted, the broker works for the seller, not the buyer.

I note you plan to look at boat until you find the one you want and "buy it right then."

BE SURE TO HAVE CONTINGENT ON SURVEY AND SATISFACTORY SEA TRIAL IN THE CONTRACT.

The survey will tell you the condition of the boat and costs of any required upgrades or things things that need to be fixed before you purchase. Depending on the age and size of the boat, you may also require a engine and rigging evaluation. All these are a buyers expense, but better to know these a walk away from an expensive repairs.

^^^^ This.

[Liam Wald]

Most brokers who will show you boats are the listing agent. In other words they work for the seller. This can sometimes be a conflict as it is not really possible to work in the best interest of the seller and the buyer at the same time.
You can work with a broker who is exclusively the agent for you, the buyer. In that case the buyers broker and the sellers broker co-op the deal and split the commission. It costs you nothing.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hmmm... could be a useful fall back earner when I quit sailing in 20yrs or so...

One I had who has now retired, her and her husband were cruisers and of course lived aboard for years, just he had gotten old and they had swallowed the anchor.
I'd look for a Broker that had some experience, not some slick salesman who was trying to find a way to make a living in Fl.

[a64pilot]

The listing agent has one goal, to sell the boat as fast and at as high a price as they can, many will say anything they think you want to hear, and some are very good, I've even had them act like I couldn't afford it, as I'm sure some fools buy just to prove they can.
You think used car salespeople are crooked? Real money is in Yachts and airplanes, that is the graduate level of sales.

[undercutter]

Originally Posted by monte

I don't think buyers brokers are a bad idea in some cases. In many cases they might help less experienced buyers get a better deal or see something they might have missed.
But in some cases, they also want to make wages, and put that above the interests of the buyer (who would think!?) possibly talking them into a boat that doesn't suit, or a price that's unreasonable, or overlooking some pertinent details, all for the sale and following commission. There's also the possibility of collusion between the buying and selling broker which may not be above board, as well as the possibility of being gazzumped when you do find a good deal (buyers broker rings a friend and tells him to put an offer in just below yours).
Also the selling broker stands to earn half his normal wage if dealing with a buyers broker, so there's little incentive for him to negotiate with the seller on your behalf when he could earn much more by picking his customers.
An example would be a broker has a yacht listed for $100K and stands to make $10K from the listing. A buyer coming to him with an offer of $90K will give him $9K in the pocket. A buyers broker with the same offer will give him $4.5K in the pocket. Do you think he is going to get on the phone and massage (yes I meant massage, not message) the seller into accepting the offer if he stands to make $9K? Of course he is. Do you think he is going to even email the seller when he receives the offer from a broker, and be ok with making $4.5K instead of his 10%, or would he rather wait till he is contacted directly by a buyer. Maybe he has to wait 6 months, a year, whatever, it's no skin off his nose. Sure the seller will be pissed off if he knew. There's a lot of sellers that experienced this type of scenario. Later finding out their broker wasn't forewarning reasonable offers or turning down flat potential buyers.
I'm just playing devils advocate here, not all transactions go like this and sometimes a buyers broker is a good idea.
On the subject of car brokers, I did look into that option on one new car purchase a few years ago, but found my usual method of writing to all the dealers within 100 miles requesting a tender gave me a better deal than the brokers offer.

I think for the OP a buyers broker is a good idea as he has stated it is his first purchase and his knowledge is limited even stating that he did not know that he could even get his own broker.

We we first arrived in Australia last April we met a guy who had just bought a boat in Darwin. This boat was a 1983 43' sloop that he paid over 150k for. Didn't have a broker of his own, relied on the sellers broker to arrange for a survey and had limited experience with boats having only chartered previously. Pretty boat with lots of teak and bright work. Needless to say he was ripped off royally and had nothing but problems with the boat after the purchase. Met the brokers agent later who admittedly felt bad for the guy but said, "that's the boat he wanted".

Seems to me that the selling Broker has no incentive to work in the buyers interest and would only be concerned with getting top dollar for the seller and so maximizing his commision. Unless the buyer has good knowledge or a good surveyor that could value the boat then a buyers broker is a must.

[monte]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hmmm... could be a useful fall back earner when I quit sailing in 20yrs or so...

Phil in a suit 😀