California communities suing for polluters to pay for storm damage

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Just as an aside, I see there is a movement to get LA at least carbon neutral, if not carbon free, withing two decades. Someone seems to be doing something.

Anyway, the lawsuits are for the courts to decide.

Ahh, so THAT'S why so many are moving to other states like Oregon, Washington, Nevada and Texas !

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Citations please. without proof it is just more retoric.

It was for water heating.
Mister Peanut put them up.
Reagan took them down.

Some structures are historic places and imho, shouldn't be added to or subtracted from on a whim by a tree hugger.

The Whitehouse is one of them.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...r-panel-array/

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

If your in a area at risk from major storms, your much better off with a generator and a large Propane tank, or Diesel. Just propane will store indefinitely I think.

I hear you a64 and I should probably open my mind a little further. I'm probably waaayyyy too conservative on this topic but I consider the supply chain as a further risk to eradicate. My approach doesn't pass a basic economics test in terms of kw cost / hour.

So how long can a 5000-watt generator run on a 500 gallon propane tank at 50% capacity?

10 horse power at 50% would use 5 HP to generate 2500 watts of electricity

5HP X 10,000 BTU would consume 50,000 BTU per hour

500 gallons X 92,000 = 46,000,000 BTU of energy in a full 500 gallon tank

46,000,000 BTU divided by 50,000 BTU = 920

A 500-gallon tank that is full would run a 500-watt generator at ½ capacity for 920 hours.

920 hours is 38 days of runtime.

That will leave our hypothetical family in Fajardo 3-5 months short of independent fuel need, depending on which estimate you use either 4 or 6 months. It is possible that even without an electrical grid that propane resupply will resume before tank empty (and much more likely in CONUS).

I have little faith....

On the other hand the solar panels are good for 25 years or lifetime depending where you shopped.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

It was for water heating.
Mister Peanut put them up.
Reagan took them down.

Some structures are historic places and imho, shouldn't be added to or subtracted from on a whim by a tree hugger.

The Whitehouse is one of them.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...r-panel-array/

I knew that but I wanted dpfrz to find it for himself. Anyho thank you for the link to a trusted entity.

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

It was for water heating.
Mister Peanut put them up.
Reagan took them down.

Some structures are historic places and imho, shouldn't be added to or subtracted from on a whim by a tree hugger.

The Whitehouse is one of them.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...r-panel-array/

I have no issue pulling down a 1978 solar water heater. Sounds like a leak (pun intended) about to happen - not some critical historical artifact.

FWIW picture is the new WH panels.
Facing towards the Washington Monument...

[IdoraKeeper]

There seems to be a pattern here. Smart folks running big companies pay for science that tells them that their business is harmful...they then figure out just what strategy will bring in the most cash before they are destroyed by regulation and market rejection. Everything you see in the petroleum world is reacting to time running out. Conservatives are correct. It is about wealth and markets. Oligarchy scheming to keep what the have...think tobacco in the 70's. As things progress this thing is going to rock every persons boat. Big oil will shrink as all uses are attacked by market forces that seek to replace petroleum and TAKE from the incumbents. What is not appreciated by the deniers is that these boat rocking takers are also makers. And so it goes.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by SecondBase

I hear you a64 and I should probably open my mind a little further. I'm probably waaayyyy too conservative on this topic but I consider the supply chain as a further risk to eradicate. My approach doesn't pass a basic economics test in terms of kw cost / hour.

So how long can a 5000-watt generator run on a 500 gallon propane tank at 50% capacity?

10 horse power at 50% would use 5 HP to generate 2500 watts of electricity

5HP X 10,000 BTU would consume 50,000 BTU per hour

500 gallons X 92,000 = 46,000,000 BTU of energy in a full 500 gallon tank

46,000,000 BTU divided by 50,000 BTU = 920

A 500-gallon tank that is full would run a 500-watt generator at ½ capacity for 920 hours.

920 hours is 38 days of runtime.

That will leave our hypothetical family in Fajardo 3-5 months short of independent fuel need, depending on which estimate you use either 4 or 6 months. It is possible that even without an electrical grid that propane resupply will resume before tank empty (and much more likely in CONUS).

I have little faith....

On the other hand the solar panels are good for 25 years or lifetime depending where you shopped.

I haven't looked but will accept your numbers.
But for a point of reference my 3.5 KW generator will run for four hours on one gallon of Diesel.
However your assuming running the generator continuously, something that is foolish, you run the generator long enough to charge a battery bank, which would typically be four or so hours a day.
In that case I could run my generator on a 500 GL Diesel tank for 4,000 hours, assuming four hours a day, that is 1000 days, or a little over three years.

[a64pilot]

Unless your willing to build a whole lot of Nuclear power plants, there is nothing that can replace fossil fuel.
Hopefully one day fusion, but I don't know when that will be.
Step number one would be to get people out of those full size Luxury SUV's and full size pickups, but that is not even close to happening.
We need ideally $10 a gallon fuel to make any real kind of shift, in my opinion.

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I haven't looked but will accept your numbers.
But for a point of reference my 3.5 KW generator will run for four hours on one gallon of Diesel.
However your assuming running the generator continuously, something that is foolish, you run the generator long enough to charge a battery bank, which would typically be four or so hours a day.
In that case I could run my generator on a 500 GL Diesel tank for 4,000 hours, assuming four hours a day, that is 1000 days, or a little over three years.

Hybrid diesel to battery could work. I'm guessing most of those folks in the San Juan gas lines are running lower-grade generators all day and half the night. Just my guess.

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Unless your willing to build a whole lot of Nuclear power plants, there is nothing that can replace fossil fuel.
Hopefully one day fusion, but I don't know when that will be.
Step number one would be to get people out of those full size Luxury SUV's and full size pickups, but that is not even close to happening.
We need ideally $10 a gallon fuel to make any real kind of shift, in my opinion.

Give it 5 more years and the renewables will step to the front. The momentum has already shifted.

If we allocate the fair DoD portion to the price of gas it probably comes in around $10. The new Ford ecoboost engines are getting 24 on the highway if you feather it with lots of torque. An F-150 at 24 mpg?? Massive progress.

I'm fine with peaceful nuclear electricity generation. Few countries making more noise about green than our almost all nuclear French.

Let the record reflect that the Paris Climate Accord was literally 77.5% nuclear powered.

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You're forgetting about the fact that the panels would have blown off the roof when the rest of the house was demolished by the storm. No solar installation in the Americas is waranteed to withstand 155mph winds.

Kenomac, come on. MY solar panels went through Irma 23 miles from the track last week and that's on a boat. It's the same tensile aluminum they use for aircraft wings except a MORE streamlined shape than a wing. Aluminum stands up in a lot more than 155 miles an hour wind every hour of every day of the year at every major airport. I can't help a bad roof and I don't need a warranty now that my panels kicked Irma's butt.

Insurers are saying better building codes held a lot of roofs ON last week. Unfortunately those codes might not have made it to PR.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by SecondBase

Insurers are saying better building codes held a lot of roofs ON last week. Unfortunately those codes might not have made it to PR.

Better building codes have made it to PR, but only a few years ago. Now a lot will be replaced with structures that will survive, next time. Slowly, things improve.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Unless your willing to build a whole lot of Nuclear power plants, there is nothing that can replace fossil fuel.
Hopefully one day fusion, but I don't know when that will be.
Step number one would be to get people out of those full size Luxury SUV's and full size pickups, but that is not even close to happening.
We need ideally $10 a gallon fuel to make any real kind of shift, in my opinion.

Uh.. no we (California) can probably get there (50%) with renewables, but the story is more complicated than that. Have a look...
California invested heavily in solar power. Now there’s so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it - Los Angeles Times

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Uh.. no we (California) can probably get there (50%) with renewables, but the story is more complicated than that. Have a look...

California invested heavily in solar power. Now there’s so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it - Los Angeles Times

Don

I appreciate that Ivan Penn's article covered the good,the growing pains & the disparate opinions with plenty of detail. This is much further along than I realized.

Guys

Cali is down to 5.5 cents a kilowatt for commercial solar. Game over. Like the man sang, [emoji445] California Love [emoji445]

Hard hats building our future--once again it starts from the west coast.

Attachment 156580

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Uh.. no we (California) can probably get there (50%) with renewables, but the story is more complicated than that. Have a look...

California invested heavily in solar power. Now there’s so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it - Los Angeles Times

Don

I appreciate that Ivan Penn's article covered the good,the growing pains & the disparate opinions with plenty of detail. This is much further along than I realized.

Guys

Cali is down to 5.5 cents a kilowatt for commercial solar. Game over.

Hard hats building our future--once again it starts from the west coast. Like the man sang, [emoji445] California Love [emoji445]

Attachment 156580