Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

OK, already, give it a break, we hear you.

Sorry, sometimes it's difficult to to stop

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

<snip>

I don't think risk in this matter can be derived from generic data out there, both because there isn't enough to go on, and the risk assessment has to be specific to THAT family, not the risks in general. So I think it's more about the parent's experience both with the type of cruising they're planning, their experience with children, and the constitution of the specific kids.

So - Leave it up to the parent's discretion?

Thank you. That's been my whole point. Use data or don't, no biggie for me.

But don't tell me (or Eric and Charlotte) that cruising is bad for my (or their) kids. My decision, thank you.

[Andrew B.]

letsgosailing,

Since you seem to believe that one's opinion, and/or beliefs should backed
up with irrefutable data would you mind sharing yours regarding what seems
to be your contention that sailing with children is more dangerous than
other childhood activities. eg soccer, baseball, rugby, football, riding a
bicycle, etc...

I have read, and reread your debate with exCalif and fail to see how you
came to your conclusion that exCalif's recent post are somehow in error
in either process, or conclusion. I do see where you totally mis- interpreted
what he posted in regards to ONE specific childhood illness.
Your extrapolation from exCalif's post regarding ONE conclusion
regarding ONE childhood illness has been really quite amazing,
but unsupported with fact. Mountains out of molehills.

What statistics are you using as proof that sailing with children is more
dangerous than staying in port ?

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with ********.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

So - Leave it up to the parent's discretion?

Thank you. That's been my whole point. Use data or don't, no biggie for me.

But don't tell me (or Eric and Charlotte) that cruising is bad for my (or their) kids. My decision, thank you.

That's exactly what I said. Parent's discretion.

Just don't misuse statistics in an attempt to "prove" your point. In this case, I haven't seen any statistics that support your point, so why even try and inject them as if there was mathematical proof?

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Andrew B.

letsgosailing,


If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with ********.

I was simply pointing out an attempt to do that.

[Andrew B.]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I was simply pointing out an attempt to do that.

Pure conjecture on your part.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Scottuk

Don't agree, it would seem you are saying nothing can be learned from the past.

No, I'm saying that their kids will be older (not toddler aged) by the time they likely restart their voyaging (or if...). So they won't be dealing with that "is it wise to take under 5s to sea" argument. It's not something I would do oceanically, but people have done so, and safely, as we did with our kid who has always come with us even in some stiff, cold stuff. This is from October of 2005 on Lake Ontario. The boy in question has just turned four. Conditions are broad reach, 24 gusting 30 knots, with just a No. 3 out. Some would call this child abuse. He called it "sleepy time".

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

That's exactly what I said. Parent's discretion.

Just don't misuse statistics in an attempt to "prove" your point. In this case, I haven't seen any statistics that support your point, so why even try and inject them as if there was mathematical proof?

It's a free internet - Everyone is free to abuse and misuse statistics to their heart's content if they so desire.

You continue on in your quest to police the internet against invalid arguments and statistics and let me know how that works out for you.

[Scottuk]

It's not something I would do oceanically, but people have done so, and safely

We agree and I think the topic merits further discussion for elucidation.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Conditions are broad reach, 24 gusting 30 knots, with just a No. 3 out. Some would call this child abuse. He called it "sleepy time".

Cool!

FWIW - Consider getting a pfd with a crotch strap or rig one up for toddlers - although yours looks pretty sing and probably wouldn't do the following...

When Josh was four we were on a water skiing trip. There was Josh in the bow and two adults in the back of the boat.

I was watching Josh pretty carefully but I was distracted by the skiers fall for like 10 seconds. The boat was stopped - When I turned around all I saw were Josh's fingers hanging on the bow rail. I jumped up there, grabbed the pfd by the collar, Josh let go and immediately slipped out the bottom of the pfd.

He sank like a rock. I dove in and in the relatively muddy lake could not see 5 feet. I kept going, reached out and snagged him.

Josh and I joke about all the times I've almost killed him over the years. Up to about 14 it was all accidental, now that he is 16 it seems more homicidal...

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

It's a free internet - Everyone is free to abuse and misuse statistics to their heart's content if they so desire.

You continue on in your quest to police the internet against invalid arguments and statistics and let me know how that works out for you.

I'd say in your case, you finally got my point.

[boatman61]

[QUOTE=letsgetsailing3;1564133]
Most kids make it, a few don't. Part of that is related to parents doing their jobs, part genetics, and part to random chance, at least in the first world.
QUOTE]

Most adults make it.. a few don't..

[colemj]

[QUOTE=boatman61;1564432]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Most kids make it, a few don't. Part of that is related to parents doing their jobs, part genetics, and part to random chance, at least in the first world.
QUOTE]

Most adults make it.. a few don't..

Nobody makes it unless they quit. And then they don't make it.

Mark

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I'd say in your case, you finally got my point.

I'd say most everyone got your point in the first or second of your posts - the disappointment is that my despite my awesome communication skills you didn't get mine.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Cool!

FWIW - Consider getting a pfd with a crotch strap or rig one up for toddlers - although yours looks pretty sing and probably wouldn't do the following...

Agreed. And while he's pushing 13 now and wears an adult PFD, that PFD pictured had a crotch strap (you can see one of the tabs), but I suspect he'd just finished using "the boy's bucket" prior to his snooze. The bit you don't see is a 5/16th" tether with a Gibb shackle on it that we used until he was six or so. By seven, he was "unturtle-ing" Optimists, despite a lack of mass, and so we deemed him OK to got tetherless unless we also needed tethering. So while I have concerns about taking toddlers offshore, I'm a proponent of getting kids sailing as early as they can work the lines.


In this shot, he's about two weeks shy of seven years old. Weight: 21 kilos/46 pounds. Took him a while to right the Opti.