Common Objects to Defend Your Boat at Sea

[Franziska]

This. Be kind and avoid stupidity.

Originally Posted by LobeliaBlue

Inhales, long slow sigh. Why can't I just drink water and mind my own business?

Because these topics are guns, guns, guns, and it's never the answer.
It's dumb and dangerous, and there is no such thing as a good guy with a gun.
There are fear-ridden egoists with poor socials skills in abundance, tho. Heh.

Seeing others as yourself is the best defense. Have I been mugged and stolen from?
Sure, a few times, but it was just stuff. Take the camera, the purse, let's not do violence.
I have some funny stories to tell instead of PTSD.

The person you are, is how the voyage goes. More than rights, you have a duty to harm no one.

[tradrockrat]

Hmmm....what can I possibly add that isn't covered by the following quote:

I've had a permit to carry for over fifteen years, and I've carried pretty much every day since I obtained it. I've attended number of course on the issue of armed self defense. I've been certified to teach classes that would qualify my students to obtain permits to carry, and taught such classes.

And when I am asked for advice on getting a gun for home defense (which I am on a regular basis - everyone who knows me knows that I am a "gun guy") I tell them that a gun is the last thing they need - and I mean they in a very specific sense.

Buying a gun and taking no other precautions is downright stupid. It's far more likely to get you intro serious trouble than to actually help. If you don't know that the perp is there until he's standing at the foot of your bed, the gun isn't going to help.

What does help is lighting and landscaping, to deter burglars, solid doors and windows with good locks to show them down, alarms and cameras scare them away, and to alert you to their presence. And, more than anything else, a plan so that everyone knows what to do.

If you do all of that, you'll probably not need a gun. But in the rare case where it's not enough, where the alarms have alerted you, you have all the family in for designated safe room with the door locked and are talking to 911, and they start breaking the door down, you'll need an effective weapon, and by a wide margin a firearm would be the most effective.

So my advice would be to get a gun, and training in how to use it, store it safely, etc., but you do everything possible to ensure you'd not need to use it.

Now I've no real experience in security in a live-aboard boat, but I'd think that the general principles are the same. Lights, alarms, locks, matter. Site selection and making cordial arrangements with your neighbors probably matter more.

Weapons, whether you a choose a firearm, pepper spray, diving knives, heavy skillets, or whatever, should be your third level contingency, not what you start with.

I guess just that I too have a permit to carry. I teach self defense for a living. I've been asked repeatedly if could teach some sort of "Boating self defense" by sailing friends.

My reply is always that self defense starts and ends 99% of the time with 5 things:

1. Preventative measures
2. situational awareness
3. environmental awareness
4. Assertive speaking
5. understanding the psychology of escalation and de-escalation

Read a book and save yourself some money. I'm expensive.

If you are going to have a weapon, make sure it's LEGAL (ffs - using illegal weapons that are less effective then legal ones because you don't want the hassle of remaining legal is mind numbingly stupid - you are SOOO F'd in the legal aftermath)

Make sure you are TRAINED in it's use and maintenance - maintenance is by far what you'll be doing most. Like I said, it's for the 1% chance you'll ever need it.

And finally - I'm in the final planning stages of a circumnavigation - we winter in the Caribbean next year and then go through the canal assuming the world is open to travel. I WILL NOT be bringing a gun with me. My choice based on my perceived threat assessments for sailing the world. You must choose for yourself.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by LobeliaBlue

Inhales, long slow sigh. Why can't I just drink water and mind my own business?

Because these topics are guns, guns, guns, and it's never the answer.
It's dumb and dangerous, and there is no such thing as a good guy with a gun.
There are fear-ridden egoists with poor socials skills in abundance, tho. Heh.

Seeing others as yourself is the best defense. Have I been mugged and stolen from?
Sure, a few times, but it was just stuff. Take the camera, the purse, let's not do violence.
I have some funny stories to tell instead of PTSD.

The person you are, is how the voyage goes. More than rights, you have a duty to harm no one.

Exactly.

Stop viewing the world through the TV or computer screen. To all you who live in fear, worrying about how to defend yourself against various boogeymen, I tell you, most of the world is not nearly as bad as you think it is. For those few places that are, just don't go there.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Gaia

Having endured an actual attack, and having been hospitalised as a result I thought it worthwhile to read through the replies and put in my two cents worth but i cannot handle the nonsense of a lot of it and must stop reading. It aggravates to read so much uninformed and ill thought out claptrap for what is essentially a very serious subject. Attacks if any will happen with lightning speed and a level of ferocity unlike anything a normal person has ever needed to deal with.

What eventually saved our lives was pepper spray with the two of the three knife wielding perpetrators screaming in pain in the water while the third scuttled away in fear.

That is a good post in contrast to the dangerous misinformation characterizing much of the rest of the thread.


Key points to remember in formulating a plan to deal with robberies, piracy, and other violent crime:

1. You are dealing with someone who has a lifetime of experience with violence. They know how to use violence. You do not, unless you have had some form of combat training, or you grew up in an environment where being on the giving and receiving end of violence was part of your everyday experience.
2. The perps see violence as just another tool to get things done, and have no more hesitation to use it to get what they want than you would have picking up the phone to order a pizza.
3. According to people who study such things, ineffective resistance is the response most likely to get you hurt or killed.

I don't pack heat these days. I have the luxury of living and working in safe places where it isn't necessary. Whether you do or not is a personal decision. If you do my advice is to carry something that is effective and that creates the minimum possible regulatory problems, such as a shotgun with buckshot as suggested upthread, or one of the high quality spray products. Practice, get instruction if necessary.


And yes, if it is that bad then think about changing your itinerary to avoid problem areas and problem ports. Stay further offshore. Think about traveling with other boats. Keep a low profile. In doubtful areas, sail in conditions that don't favor the pangas.



And for the love of Pete don't fall for any of that movie stuff upthread. It only works when the script writer is on your side

[FastTrout]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

Hmmm....what can I possibly add that isn't covered by the following quote:



I guess just that I too have a permit to carry. I teach self defense for a living. I've been asked repeatedly if could teach some sort of "Boating self defense" by sailing friends.

My reply is always that self defense starts and ends 99% of the time with 5 things:

1. Preventative measures
2. situational awareness
3. environmental awareness
4. Assertive speaking
5. understanding the psychology of escalation and de-escalation

Read a book and save yourself some money. I'm expensive.

If you are going to have a weapon, make sure it's LEGAL (ffs - using illegal weapons that are less effective then legal ones because you don't want the hassle of remaining legal is mind numbingly stupid - you are SOOO F'd in the legal aftermath)

Make sure you are TRAINED in it's use and maintenance - maintenance is by far what you'll be doing most. Like I said, it's for the 1% chance you'll ever need it.

And finally - I'm in the final planning stages of a circumnavigation - we winter in the Caribbean next year and then go through the canal assuming the world is open to travel. I WILL NOT be bringing a gun with me. My choice based on my perceived threat assessments for sailing the world. You must choose for yourself.

You teach this?

For one, if it’s a illegal weapon, in a use of force situation that will not matter on if your use of force was justified or if it was a murder. Intent, ability to inflict damage, etc all will come into play, but having a 15rd vs 10rd mag, they might tack that on as a separate charge, but has jack diddly to do with a defense use of force.

If you are in a 3rd world corrupt state, I would consider your actions in the aftermath of a use of force in the context of the government you are in.

Per avoiding a situation by crossing a street, or going into a crowd, for sure, defensive speaking yeah, to a degree, deescalation...please, at that point no.

Per spending most of the time maintaining the gun, no, lots of rookies overclean their weapons and actually cause more wear, my long range rifle sees a swab of boretech eliminator maybe every 500 rounds, aside from that a little G96 spray and wipe is about it, now taking a pistol, carbine, shotgun class is a whole nother story, as an example the amount of people who carry pistols and have never practiced shooting through car windows is crazy, especially with the attacks you see in the news these days.


I have multiple CCWs too, and have had my sidearm save my butt once already, thankfully I didn’t have to fire it.
Plenty of CDC studies that show victims are far less harmed when they are armed, that the use of firearms to stop crime outnumbers criminal use of weapons, etc

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsi.../#56a82cad299a

Using any projectile, gun, bow, Molotov, spear, rock, it requires practice and skill

Another good option is select breed of dog.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Exactly.

Stop viewing the world through the TV or computer screen. To all you who live in fear, worrying about how to defend yourself against various boogeymen, I tell you, most of the world is not nearly as bad as you think it is. For those few places that are, just don't go there.

I wished the world matched your imagination

It doesn’t, stuff happens

Not being able to deal with a crazy is as bad as not being able to do basic repairs on your boat, or not having flares or a fire extinguisher

Be happy, hope for the best, but do prepare for less than the best.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Stop viewing the world through the TV or computer screen. To all you who live in fear, worrying about how to defend yourself against various boogeymen, I tell you, most of the world is not nearly as bad as you think it is. For those few places that are, just don't go there.

Had an acquaintance who did not have much money and lived in an inexpensive apartment in Minneapolis within walking distance of the things he needed so he would not need a car. Middle aged, diabetic, overweight, living by himself. He was badly injured in a mugging just outside his apartment on the way home, and hospitalized. After he recovered, he started carrying and was able to repel two similar attacks over the ensuing 10 years, and finally died of complications of diabetes. During the last years of his life he was an activist for equality in availability of firearms to groups that are ordinarily the target of racism and discrimination.



I suppose he could have moved, though I am not sure he could afford it. I suppose he could have decided not to stay out after sunset. He could have bought a car, perhaps, or made other lifestyle changes to mitigate risk. They would have involved tradeoffs, significant ones.


Now, cruising, we have more money and more choices than he did. We can choose to stay home. We can adjust our itinerary. We can also keep a lower profile by choosing a boat that is a little more modest. We can be generous with the locals in one way or another. We can take a faith-based approach and turn the other cheek.


Those things all involve tradeoffs, and none of them are 100% effective. I believe there are situations where the rational, thinking sailor might choose to carry heat, because the other means of staying safe are untenable, or result in giving up too much in order to stay safe.



I don't carry these days. I'd like to say it's because I trust people and am willing to turn the other cheek and so on, and it's true. But I also realize that I'm in a position of privilege by reason of body shape, gender, age, and financial/situational ability to avoid dangerous places. I don't have anything against people who choose to carry for their own safety.


Maybe that puts me in the same category as all the Rambos, I guess.

[tradrockrat]

Originally Posted by FastTrout

You teach this?

For one, if it’s a illegal weapon, in a use of force situation that will not matter on if your use of force was justified or if it was a murder. Intent, ability to inflict damage, etc all will come into play, but having a 15rd vs 10rd mag, they might tack that on as a separate charge, but has jack diddly to do with a defense use of force.

If you are in a 3rd world corrupt state, I would consider your actions in the aftermath of a use of force in the context of the government you are in.

Per avoiding a situation by crossing a street, or going into a crowd, for sure, defensive speaking yeah, to a degree, deescalation...please, at that point no.

Per spending most of the time maintaining the gun, no, lots of rookies overclean their weapons and actually cause more wear, my long range rifle sees a swab of boretech eliminator maybe every 500 rounds, aside from that a little G96 spray and wipe is about it, now taking a pistol, carbine, shotgun class is a whole nother story, as an example the amount of people who carry pistols and have never practiced shooting through car windows is crazy, especially with the attacks you see in the news these days.


I have multiple CCWs too, and have had my sidearm save my butt once already, thankfully I didn’t have to fire it.
Plenty of CDC studies that show victims are far less harmed when they are armed, that the use of firearms to stop crime outnumbers criminal use of weapons, etc

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsi.../#56a82cad299a

Using any projectile, gun, bow, Molotov, spear, rock, it requires practice and skill

Another good option is select breed of dog.





I wished the world matched your imagination

It doesn’t, stuff happens

Not being able to deal with a crazy is as bad as not being able to do basic repairs on your boat, or not having flares or a fire extinguisher

I wish online forums could contain the complete information required to convey what I teach, but it can't. Half of what you said is exactly what I said, the other half was misinterpreted.

The discussion is about dealing with violence around the world - not in the street in front of your house. If you are using an illegal weapon in a country you are not a citizen of... you won't enjoy what comes next. We're not talking mag capacity, we're talking 9 pages of "sneak in this illegal thing since you don't have a gun". You can't honestly quote law in a thread talking about different areas of the world - all laws vary - make sure you know the laws of the locations you're sailing. Those third world prisons...

Maintenance is NOT just Cleaning, and you know that - obviously. You seem to have some knowledge so please don't assume I don't. You're talking about keeping a weapon (and we've been given A LOT of weapons to consider in this ridiculous thread - pistols, shotguns, rifles, manchettes, baseball bats, pepper spray, bear spray, spearguns, fire extinguishers converted into pepper spray, tasers,...etc etc etc) in a salt water environment. Maintain your weapon. Know how to use it. That's what I said.

The five aspects of solid self defense I listed work together - not as individual steps. And yes, even if you do everything right, there is that 1% chance it will all go to hell anyway - so decide beforehand what you will do, how you will do it, and train for that. Respects.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by FastTrout

I wished the world matched your imagination

It doesn’t, stuff happens

Not being able to deal with a crazy is as bad as not being able to do basic repairs on your boat, or not having flares or a fire extinguisher

Be happy, hope for the best, but do prepare for less than the best.

I'm just happy it doesn't match yours .

Of course stuff happens. You could get hit with a meteor, but I bet you don't plan for it.

No one is saying bad stuff doesn't happen. Nothing wrong with a little planning. But your best "object" to defend your boat is your brain. Use it.

[CassidyNZ]

When our sailing territory back in the day was South Africa, Mozambique, Madagascar and places like that where poverty drove crime, my standard practise when receiving a new credit card from the bank, was to wait a week or two, declare it lost, have it cancelled and a new one issued.

Then the cancelled credit card with a modest amount of cash (currency in these territories is like Monopoly money at best) would go into a wallet along with a business card or two, a shop loyalty card or two (to make it look authentic). This wallet would be left in the chart table to hand to anyone with a weapon demanding money.

I never had to use it. The only theft we’ve ever had was our dingy that was stolen due to it being left floating alongside overnight in Madagascar (yeah, stupid, I know). At the time I wanted to kill someone but on reflection, that dingy probably turned an underprivileged wanna-be “boat boy” into a fledgling businessman.

Now that I live in New Zealand and cruise the South Pacific, the most vicious thing I have on the boat is a filleting knife and that is not intended as a defensive weapon. It fillets fish.

I agree with Mike Oreilly, if you have even a tiny inkling that being in a given place may lead to someone attacking you, just don’t go there. Believe it or not, there is a miriad of safe places in the world to cruise.

[Cadence]

The disposable wallet was about the best post yet.

[Simi 60]

I'll just leave this here.......

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

I agree with Mike Oreilly, if you have even a tiny inkling that being in a given place may lead to someone attacking you, just don’t go there. Believe it or not, there is a miriad of safe places in the world to cruise.

My advice to new permit holders was simple - if there's someone you might go where you wouldn't feel safe unless you were carying a gun, go someplace else.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jdege

My advice to new permit holders was simple - if there's someone you might go where you wouldn't feel safe unless you were carying a gun, go someplace else.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I'm just happy it doesn't match yours .

Of course stuff happens. You could get hit with a meteor, but I bet you don't plan for it.

No one is saying bad stuff doesn't happen. Nothing wrong with a little planning. But your best "object" to defend your boat is your brain. Use it.

Come on Mike, one can only use what one has.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I don't pack heat these days.

How very Starsky and Hutch