Diesel surveyor Southern California?

[Bmorgan562]

Hello Everyone! We are purchasing our first boat!! Ive lined up a general surveyor but need help finding someone to survey the diesel. Its a Perkins. (The surveyor asked me what brand engine and when I told him it was a Perkins he couldn't recommend anyone).Im also looking for a rigger. (I posted this from another account I made 10+ years ago that I had somehow forgotten about. Sorry for the repost.

[more]

Originally Posted by Bmorgan562

Hello Everyone! We are purchasing our first boat!! Ive lined up a general surveyor but need help finding someone to survey the diesel. Its a Perkins. (The surveyor asked me what brand engine and when I told him it was a Perkins he couldn't recommend anyone).Im also looking for a rigger. (I posted this from another account I made 10+ years ago that I had somehow forgotten about. Sorry for the repost.

how old is this engine. how many working hours. read instruction of engine.

for example epa something tier 3 volvo penta d2 55 2500 hours overhoul 5000 hours exschange engine.your engine 5000 hour you calculate need new engine. but this engine can last 5000 to 18000 hours without touch. but on 15-18000 hours need new long block exschange 3-5000 $

[Bmorgan562]

Its original, 1977. Im told it's been "completely" redone. All/everything that is bolted on has been replaced. Im told 2500 hrs, but shows 5000 due to owner leaving a key on while away. so......Im looking for a professional. How important do you think finding a Perkins specific mechanic/surveyor is? thank you

[more]

Originally Posted by Bmorgan562

Its original, 1977. Im told it's been "completely" redone. All/everything that is bolted on has been replaced. Im told 2500 hrs, but shows 5000 due to owner leaving a key on while away. so......Im looking for a professional. How important do you think finding a Perkins specific mechanic/surveyor is? thank you

this engine is end of life. do you know exact model 40-100 ps.
my suggestion must have money on side for buy new engine. 46-47 year perkins engine is realy for Exchange. i think you dont need survey,simply calculate no engine. Inboard marine diesels should run for an average of 5,000 hours. Well-maintained diesel engines run up to 8,000 hours.
this old perkins leaking oil from new in factory. i hate this old engine,buy new engine leking oil

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by more

this engine is end of life. do you know exact model 40-100 ps.
my suggestion must have money on side for buy new engine. 46-47 year perkins engine is realy for Exchange. i think you dont need survey,simply calculate no engine. Inboard marine diesels should run for an average of 5,000 hours. Well-maintained diesel engines run up to 8,000 hours.
this old perkins leaking oil from new in factory. i hate this old engine,buy new engine leking oil

OP - this is really bad advice. Even if the engine has 5000 hours, properly maintained and responsibly run, it could easily have another 5000 hours of useful life.

I wish I could help you with a SoCal mechanic. You do not need a Perkins specific mechanic. If you find a marine mechanic, he will be able to assess a Perkins. They were ubiquitous in the 1960s through early 1980s. Thousands of boats and they remain common. A marine mechanic who doesn't work on Perkins would be unemployable.

You could do a sea trial and reserve right for mechanic. During sea trial, the engine should be stone-cold and start immediately - within a second or so. There may be some minor smoke at startup but should clear within a minute or two. The transmission should shift smoothly. Prop shaft should be able to be turned by hand without excessive effort. Assuming traditional stuffing box, it should not leak at rest but may drip slightly when underway. It may get warm but not too hot to hold your hand. During sea trial, engine should operate at WOT (wide open throttle) for 5+ minutes without overheating or blowing excessive black smoke. It should achieve within 200-300 of rated RPM.

The Achilles Heel of any marine diesel is the exhaust elbow. Unfortunately these corroded from the inside out so are difficult to assess. But if the elbow is rusted and looks like it hasn't been maintained, take note. There is likely a vented loop of 3/4" hose to prevent engine flooding. Make sure the intake thru-hull is operable and not frozen open.

That should get you started if you can't find a mechanic but want to proceed with a sea trial. Good luck.

[NorthCoastJoe]

Get a new engine. Perkins are messy, polluting, stone age. If you're asking someone else to assess it you should not own one. If you don't know it better than your mate you will soon. I replaced mine with a Beta. No leaks more power, no problems.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by NorthCoastJoe

Get a new engine. Perkins are messy, polluting, stone age. If you're asking someone else to assess it you should not own one. If you don't know it better than your mate you will soon. I replaced mine with a Beta. No leaks more power, no problems.

Huh. Good thing I didn't know that before I left San Francisco on my 1970 Willard 36 trawler. I'm currently in Mazatlan having put about 250 hours on my 54 year old Perkins 4.236 which needed 1-quart of oil added. You're saying I should replace the engine now before it's too late?

FYI - A previous boat had a 4.107 Perkins which did leak a small amount from the rear engine seal, a common issue with 4.107s that was solved in the 4.108s

In my opinion, sailors have so many problems with diesels for two reasons. First, they tend to use them hard (short run times and poor maintenance). Second, the exhaust systems are often poorly designed and the engine drowns when boat is loaded and heeled. Blaming the engine is missing the root cause of the problem.

[BAD ORCA]

Try asking in the Erickson yacht forums if you haven't already. Think there are a few SoCal guys there also. I'm in Los Angeles and there are no competent or ethical diesel mechanics up here. We have tried over half a dozen and finally just gave up. All the pro's seem to work out of Long Beach although i have no experience with any of them yet.

[CrispyCringle]

Where is the boat located? I know one in Ventura area, but don’t know if he works on Perkins or if he would go to LA area.

[boatpoker]

I rebuilt my 1971 Perkins HT6-354 at 20,000hrs.
It didn't really need it, I just had nothing else to do that winter.

[skipperpete]

I have a question regarding engine and rigging surveys. What exactly is it that you (the buyer) want to know and what do you expect from your machinery or rig after an inspection? If it’s a guarantee that nothing bad will go wrong, you’re likely to be disappointed because no rigger or mechanic, even with the most thorough and informed investigation can promise that the engine won’t fail catastrophically or the mast won’t snap a shroud or stay and fall in the water a day after the survey. Very few riggers go aloft to inspect the masthead attachments or open up a furler foil to view the wire and very few mechanics do more than a visual inspection of an engine, an oil sample and a seatrial because the OWNER or broker won’t allow intrusive inspections. Most will flat out refuse to allow a compression test, many will not allow removal of senders for an oil pressure check with a master gauge, occasionally because they have something to hide but more often because they don’t want an unknown mechanic or rigger pulling things apart to get a clearer idea of how good or bad the rig or engine actually is.

[Bmorgan562]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

I have a question regarding engine and rigging surveys. What exactly is it that you (the buyer) want to know and what do you expect from your machinery or rig after an inspection? If it’s a guarantee that nothing bad will go wrong, you’re likely to be disappointed because no rigger or mechanic, even with the most thorough and informed investigation can promise that the engine won’t fail catastrophically or the mast won’t snap a shroud or stay and fall in the water a day after the survey. Very few riggers go aloft to inspect the masthead attachments or open up a furler foil to view the wire and very few mechanics do more than a visual inspection of an engine, an oil sample and a seatrial because the OWNER or broker won’t allow intrusive inspections. Most will flat out refuse to allow a compression test, many will not allow removal of senders for an oil pressure check with a master gauge, occasionally because they have something to hide but more often because they don’t want an unknown mechanic or rigger pulling things apart to get a clearer idea of how good or bad the rig or engine actually is.

Thank you for your response. With my limited experience aside from the compression test which each brand of engine needs its specific fitting, the engine survey is far from just visual. and the rigger absolutely goes up the mast. Otherwise you're right there wouldn't be any point paying someone to do something I can do myself. I don't expect guarantees just a level of thoroughness I'm not experienced enough to have myself (yet)

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

I have a question regarding engine and rigging surveys. What exactly is it that you (the buyer) want to know and what do you expect from your machinery or rig after an inspection? If it’s a guarantee that nothing bad will go wrong, you’re likely to be disappointed because no rigger or mechanic, even with the most thorough and informed investigation can promise that the engine won’t fail catastrophically or the mast won’t snap a shroud or stay and fall in the water a day after the survey. Very few riggers go aloft to inspect the masthead attachments or open up a furler foil to view the wire and very few mechanics do more than a visual inspection of an engine, an oil sample and a seatrial because the OWNER or broker won’t allow intrusive inspections. Most will flat out refuse to allow a compression test, many will not allow removal of senders for an oil pressure check with a master gauge, occasionally because they have something to hide but more often because they don’t want an unknown mechanic or rigger pulling things apart to get a clearer idea of how good or bad the rig or engine actually is.

A good mechanic has years of experience, something few owners have. I'm pretty good with engines and I still want a trusted opinion from an unbiased source. Someone who can tell whether white smoke is water (head gasket) or unburned fuel (injector). Someone who will check engine mounts, charging, etc. Boats often have generators and other electrical sources. Someone who's opinion will be respected by the seller for possible credit. That said, I personally like to do the mechanical survey last - I can do a lot of the early identification but want a trusted opinion.....if the sale proceeds to that point.

Although I'm pretty good with mechanical stuff, I am reminded of the saying "an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.".

[skipperpete]

A compression test is one of the thorny issues , sellers and brokers often won’t allow intrusive testing and often for good reason, a bad mechanic will opt to do a test through the glowplug holes because that’s the easiest quickest way to go but often glowplugs break off the tip as they squeek their way out and THEN you get to take the head off and the cost of the survey heads north by maybe $400 on a good day..... but at least you get a look into the cylinders and valves and heat exchanger and turbo. I know you mentioned Perkins and they usually don’t have glow plugs (Perama does) so the previous comment doesn’t apply but as for unbiased, .....there is pressure from the seller or his agent to avoid intrusive inspections and it’s not unusual for brokers to have “tame” surveyors, riggers and mechanics and will ban independent or freelance guys (or gal’s) that might do a too well informed or executed inspection. The aim of the game is to sell you the boat without discounting the price and anyone who jeopardize’s that goal is seen as a problem.

[CrispyCringle]

Our IP44 is our first “large” sailboat. We ended up getting a general, rig and engine inspection. Cost is small compared to total cost. I think an engine survey is pretty useless. If it starts and runs well they aren’t going to dive much deeper because of above reasons unless it visable and obvious. My engine survey said a rear engine mount was bad. Previous owner replaced it and when the old one was removed it was fine. I was unfamiliar with the details of rigging at the time. Probably good to have gotten that one. He did go up the mast and that was the most beneficial for that inspection. Found a few things up there that I would have otherwise missed. For the general inspection the only thing he did that I wouldn’t have was on haul out he tapped the entire hull. But he didn’t check any of the electronics, and only a cursory look at the wiring. It’s healthy, so maybe that’s why. In general, I think they are of little benifit if you are the type that does all the repairs. If you know nothing then they are better than nothing. However, the insurance company needed to see all the inspections, and then wanted every little negative comment fixed by a licensed repair tech. Rediculous. Had to challenge a lot of that stuff. So the survey helps you on negotiation, but hurts you with an insurer. My experience.