Doing my research and wondering...

[TomAndLee]

John..I lost my whole post/reply to you...froze n crashed right when I was done...sorry it is now a bit butchered.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Lee,
1) Well first off, you ask some good questions and I applaud your efforts to do the research!!

Thank you. I tend to do pretty well in this department until I get this crazy overwhelming, contradicting feeling then I just have to ask to get it out of my head and get some perspective!

Please don't get discouraged, cuz if you have specific needs and desires, it can take a while to find "the right boat" for you two....I spent 2.5 years looking for my current boat!

Good to know, I see some who find a boat so quickly and others who take their time. We do have time on our side before we head out so I'm starting now.



3) Next I can address your specific questions here....all of these boats are "production" boats....Catalina and Hylas, Oyster and Moody, etc. etc....even Morris and Swan...
What some sailors these days comment on, in a derisive way, is about the "modern", "cookie-cutter", "massed-produced" boats....whose designs and mass-production techniques are driven by their primary customers (the bareboat charter industry)...they refer to these as "production" boats and mistakenly believe everything else isn't!
But, this is about the design of the boat, not whether it is a production boat....as they almost all "production" boats....
Remember Westsails and Tayana 37's were production boats, and many more just like 'em are as far from a modern cruising design as you can get!! (won't find sugar-scoop sterns nor big comfortable islands berths in any of those older / traditional-designed production boats!



My own boat, a Catalina 470, has 180 sisterships....over almost a 20 year production run, Catalina has made only 182 (?) of them...and while they don't advertise 'em anymore, you can still order one! There are 3 basic interior layouts (97% are the standard 2-cabin layout) and 2 different keels (6' wing or 8' fin), and 2 different masts/rigs (64' or 68')....you could order in any arrangement....

What year is your Catalina..although it is probably next to pic in posting. How long have you had her?


a) Sugar-scoop sterns / Swim platforms and SCUBA diving...
As for SCUBA diving (been doing it since a young teen in the mid-1970's, mostly from boats, power and sail...and some from beaches), like Ann and Jim, I too find diving from the dinghy to be what I do the majority of the time (hence why I have a 12' Carib RIB and 15-hp Yamaha 2-stroke!)...

Remember, these are sailboats, not Dive Boats!!

Very true *loved this entire paragraph*

Here are some pics of mine...{note that I use 2 pieces of 2" wide webbing and 4 big SS eye straps thru-bolted thru transom, and some lashings, to secure each tank, for offshore voyaging, the tanks do NOT move!!...

I like the way you have these set up. I've seen several methods and I think I like this best as it isn't in the way or take up precious deck space.


b) As for a "decent sized berth for comfort".....
If you mean for comfort both at sea and at anchor, it's a tall order, but it can be done...(I've done it)

Most modern mid-sized boats now-days are designed with an "owner's berth", and many (like mine) have a full queen-sized "island berth" in the owners cabin....most of the older, "more traditional", boats don't have these "owner's berths", and none that I know of ever had a "queen-sized island berth"...
But, FYI....you'll need some good lee cloths / lee boards to make these usable as "sea berths"..

Here are some pics of one my Lee Boards in my aft cabin, full queen-sized island berth...

Great pics! Thank you so much for the links as well!


4) And, now for the really important stuff...
Choose a boat on your needs and desires, AND knowing what you can change on-board and what you cannot!!

In real estate it's said that it's all "location", "location", "location"...
But, boats move....so...

a) Think of the hull, keel, and rudder design as the first (and most important) criteria....
You must look at the underwater part....the underbody....especially the hull forefoot....these are things you do NOT see when at "in-water boat shows"!! But, you must look anyway...
Also, take note of the keel....you want lead, not steel or cast iron! And, how is the keel is attached....damn well better be a dozen keel bolts, in a nice deep sump...etc. etc...
And, while most will accept spade rudders are perfectly "okay", there are differences here as well....how is it designed and built, rudder shaft, etc...
All of these things are your first "location", that is damned hard to change, if at all!!

This makes me realize we really need to get on more boats and get a 'feel'


b) Deck Layout / Design (including the cockpit) and rig..
While you can add an inner forestay to many sloops and fly a staysail in heavy air (usually not necessary for most cruisers), if the boat is properly designed and rigged in the first place, and tailored to your sailing / cruising environments, you shouldn't need to change anything about the rig...

Ahhhh....all of those questions!!! Yes very important ... all of it


The deck design / layout (including the cockpit) is your second "location" that is damned hard to change, if at all...


c) Basic / major interior layout and design.
.... don't overlook the galley!!

YES! Galley is very important to us. I like how open a long galley along the wall makes the boat open up but can't imagine doing anything in there while under way.



-- Heads....not as controversial and "guns" or "anchors", but there are strong opinions on these...
I prefer having two heads....this is for redundancy!! (but, I've heard more than a few husband and wife cruising couples that have "his" and "hers" heads, and that this alone allows them to avoid divorce lawyers!!

I'm kind of liking the 'his' and 'her' head idea. Never crossed my mind


So, if you want a U-shaped galley, comfortable island berth, and some precise number of cabins and heads, etc... then the basic interior layout / design is your third "location"!

Of course, there are many other things, systems, design criteria, etc. to think about, like ventilation (especially in your sleeping cabins), space for adequate solar array, etc. etc. etc....but, I do hope the above helps you get started...and that my long-winded ramblings didn't bore or overwhelm...
Let us know if there are other things we can help with?

Far from boring post John! So very helpful to us and much to think about. I almost feel bad for being so short in my responses....I'm just trying to take it all in! I appreciate the photos accompanying what your were talking about as well.

Not to fear, now you are on my radar so the electronic questions will come when we are closer to ownership and I'm sure for quite a time after!

~Lee

Fair winds..

John

P.S. Since I'm a radio nut, and have made my living owning /operating an electronics firm (mostly commercial satcoom), it feels strange that I'm answering a question without mentioning electrics / electronics....but this time I'm giving you real world sailing info about the boat, boat design, etc...based on my own sailing / cruising experience starting as a kid in 1965...

[TomAndLee]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Very few women would be able to hop into a dinghy from the water, and very few men over 55.

Hookah is very handy for working around the boat and shallow dives. I purchased a HookaMax 12v system which is complete crap & wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they prefer buying Chinese products which turn to rust within a year. What junk.

If and when I replace the compressor, I'll probably just pick up a $90 Porter Cable oilless from the Home depot and use my tanks for anything remote.

Did I mention that HookaMax is crap?

When I first learned how to dive, my instructor made me repeat "weight belts suck" and it always goes through my head when I see one. Now..whenever I hear about Hookah systems I will hear "hookamax is crap"

[Stu Jackson]

1. I like how open a long galley along the wall makes the boat open up

2. but can't imagine doing anything in there while under way.

1. Actually it is quite the reverse. An example is the Catalina 42, which was offered with both an aft port galley and a starboard long galley. The latter made exactly the same space feel MUCH smaller, and physically reduced the size of the salon area considerably.

2. Yup.

[ka4wja]

Lee (and Tom), and Ken too,
I think it might've been lost in my long-winded post....but, I never wrote that you'd "propel" yourself into a dinghy with SCUBA gear.
I specifically mentioned a folding SS boarding ladder, designed for inflatables!!

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

I was wondering about propelling myself into a dinghy, I've never done it so I am pretty sure I won't be a pro let alone trying to mess with gear.
We were thinking of a hookah system, how do you like it?

Rope ladders..yea, umm no

Sorry, I ran out of allowed "images" / "links" in that post....and had to delete the links for the ladder...

So, here it is...It's a St. Croix
There are others....some better! (but, I like mine cuz it folds out-of-the-way, and hence it is part of my normal kit, I never need to remove it from my dinghy unless I'm going to tow it)
As I said there are better ones, ones that are easier to use (especially with fins on), but this one is a great little ladder...
St. Croix Folding Ladder for Inflatable Boats

St. Croix Stainless Steel 3-Step Inflatable Boat Folding Ladder #103H

And, if you want more options:
Marine Inflatable Boat Ladders


I hope this clarifies things...

Fair winds..

John

[ka4wja]

Lee,
1) My Catalina 470 is hull #26, a 1999 model....commissioned in April 99....(hull #1 was done in 1998)...I bought her in April 2004, from the original owner...
Have sailed her across the Atlantic a few times, thru the Carib and Bahamas, etc...been thru a couple wicked full-gales at sea, and three Cat 3 hurricanes at anchor (a whole 'nother story!)
I belong to the Catalina 470 owners group, but it's not "cliquey" nor "clubish"...
But, my boat is not for sale...


BTW, remember that every boat is difference and hence where / how to mount and secure your tanks will be specific to your boat and your use of your boat...

2) If you like a more open look, more open space (not always good in offshore sailing, but if you have adequate hand rails, etc. it can be fine), my advice is not to worry about a "long galley", cuz as Stu pointed out it doesn't really give you more room!
But, if you really want more space, remove the dinette table! (or install a smaller one!)
{FYI, the original owner of my boat, ordered her without a dinette table, and when I found this gem of a boat (5 yrs old and oven never cooked in, forward berth never slept on) I thought I might want one....but after 2 days on-board realized, nope! Never needed it / never missed it!
Although having a nice cockpit table is a necessity in this case...I also have a starboard-side settee / table and seat combo, as well as chart table....so I've got places to eat and play cards, etc. below decks!}
Unless you're a family, it's doubtful you'll ever need to sit and eat below decks with more than just the two of you!! Especially if you're going to be cruising the Caribbean / tropical locales, you'll be dining al fresco more often than not...
I don't really have pics posted on-line showing the whole main salon, 'cuz most of my pics are of changes / improvements I've made...but here are a few showing how rommy the salon is without a big dinette table!
And, yes I added more handholds...
Handrails



If you look at the layout and remove the dinette table in your mind, you can see how much more "open" things get...



Port side dinette settee (without the dinette table, of course)
These pics are of the lee cloths..







Starboard side settee / table and seats...(and Nav Station Chart table, too)









3) As for "electronics"....
Here are some pics of my Nav Station...








Hope this helps...

John

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by TomAndLee

Thanks Hamburking! I initially liked the Hunters through online research but I have allowed myself to be slowly poisoned by others opinions and we haven't even looked at one. I've never been on one but I'm thinking we need to in order to make our own decision. I'm glad you loved her so much. How long did you owner her? Did you buy her new? Any major issues?

My Hunter Legend 35.5 was a 1994 that I boughtin 1999, so 5 years old. I sold it when my son was born...with two babies at home I wasn't going to be sailing much, so I placed an ad at a high price to test the waters, and the first guy to call bought it on the spot...what a shock!

I didn't have any issues at all. Well, I didn't care for the dutchman flaking system on the main very much, seemed to be more fuss than necessary. And the below deck jib furler looked nice, but again, seemed unecessary. The A/C worked great, ice cold, but the installation used up a lot of deep storage.

There was refrigeration and a freezer, pressure hot water (engine and shore powered), loved the stern seats (at the time called hunter seats, now often copied), and the single line reefing was outstanding...really worked well and easily. I was usually single handing, so this was a huge deal to me.

One thing that was a big problem for me was the CNG stove. It was a beautiful stove that worked perfectly, but CNG is not available in my area. I spent a ridiculous amount of money retrofitting the US tanks on the boat to Canadian standards so that they could be refilled in Toronto, a long way from home. In hindsight I should have just replaced the stove...simple solution.

I ran aground (lightly) once on rock and found that the wing keel looks a lot like a bruce anchor. But I was able to winch myself off using a line ashore pretty quick.

The finish below was done beautifully, lots of wood everywhere. The older models had plexiglass, not so nice. The common comment from guests was that below was like a really cool little condo. Honestly, it was nicer than my home on land. I could easily have lived on that boat.

Thanks for asking about my old boat. I am told that model was one of Hunter's best ever, and actually sailed very well. The subsequent models had swept back spreaders and no backstay...I never cared for that. My model had a tapered mast and high tensile rig. It was very well thought out. Self tailing winches everywhere. I don't know how well this model has held up, since it would be over 20 years old now. They are still rare in my area, and rarely come up for sale.

If you PM me, I'll tell you what I paid and what I sold for.

[daletournier]

I have the same boat as John, in fact spoke to him prior to purchasing it. Regarding his passage making comments particularly bedding and cooking, he couldn't be more spot on.

I've just completed 4200nm, the last leg just under 2000nm and I'm off again tonight. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to put thought into those two areas, so far the catalina 470 is excelling in both, we are sleeping as well as could be expected and eating like kings.

Regarding diving, I've converted my back shower into a dive tank and accessories room, as well as being a wet weather gear room.

The better fed and rested you are on passage the better the trip, its that simple. Ive setup the saloon area as one large sleeping room with lee cloths on both sides by lowering the tables , the center of the boat is quieter and more stable.

Also as john mentioned, hull design, I like modern boats but don't want one that slams.

[daletournier]

I like to add two more things. Its important to me to have a boat that is easily driven while not compromising comfort to much. Being able to get to an anchorage early or knocking a day of a passage is a good thing.
Also tankage, good fuel and water tankage. I can motorsail approx 700nm if need be, in some places in the world like asia this is a serious advantage.

[J Clark H356]

Don' let the Hunter detractors keep you off Hunters. Hunters have been around the world and many are in Florida, the northern Gulf Coast, the Bahamas and Caribbean. We have a Hunter 356 and it would be a little small for you with diving equipment, but we bought it new in 2003 and have been on it a lot. Just spent day 1049 on it today. For what you are contemplating I'd look at a Hunter 41. That boat has a lot of what you are looking for.

Look at comfort items like generators, water maker, full enclosure because you spend most of your time at anchor at the dock, but when you make a passage, you want to not be wet and cold. Go look at boats and charter some. You will get a feel for what you really want.

[Sandero]

The OP mentioned there was a budget... isn't there always a budget?... This is a HUGE filter of what someone can shoot for. Couples sail off on mid 30s, 40s, 50s, and more and for each the size is probably fine... As you go longer the volume increases geometrically as do the costs and the time spend maintaining.

I have had Shiva... a 36' sloop for 32 years and my wife has been with me for the past 20. I asked her yesterday when we were returning from a 2 week cruise if she would be happier with a larger boat. She said... no. And we agreed the only thing we wish we had was an aft cabin which allowed either of us to get out of the bed without disturbing the other. We have more storage than we need... all manner of spares... a huge cockpit... and we use an AP 98% of the time so 2 helms is an absurdity. No cruiser is manning the helm.. one or two of them... When I see them I know this is fun sailing, racing... or who knows what????

Interior spaces need to be compact to be safe in a seaway... dance floors don't cut it. We've got a SS drop down swim ladder... which we use for boarding from the dink... works fine.

As mentioned above your dink is really important when you are cruising... Get the biggest you can...with a decent OB... You'll use your dink like crazy... You want the right dink.

Features? That's personal... you can figure that out without listening to others who don't know BO about you. Can't make recommendations without knowing what you can afford.

[Stu Jackson]

Re John's #20:

.......my advice is not to worry about a "long galley", cuz as Stu pointed out it doesn't really give you more room!
But, if you really want more space, remove the dinette table! (or install a smaller one!)

I should add that the long galley also removes some valuable seating, which I forgot to mention in my earlier post. Just take a look at the different layouts for the same boats and you'll see what I mean.

And John's right about the table. Many, many of our C34 skippers have significantly reduced the size of their salon tables. In fact, after 18 years with my boat I am in the process of doing it, finally. Why? 'Cuz I am now in British Columbia after sailing her up from California last summer, and I'm spending a lot more time down below. Some examples: Salon Table Ideas - Table FLIX

[TomAndLee]

Hey John~

When I made the propel comment it was in regards to Ken talking about the difficulty of getting yourself (myself) back into the dinghy with gear on. It's hard enough without it.

The dinghy ladders are awesome but yes pretty dang expensive. I can definitely see the benefit and how they would be worth it!

I actually like the smaller tables but again, I am not sure what we will really like until we are experiencing it. It's just the two of us and we are not huge entertainers let alone spending much time below unless we are ill (and still maybe not then) or weather conditions. We are doing a charter in October to get on a boat that is similar to a boat on our list so I plan on soaking up (and recording because I forget things) all the details on the boat and what we like and do not care for.

Love the pics, thank you! Nav station/electronics look great too! Sooooo you are SURE you don't want to sell her?!

[Kenomac]

OP,

You really need to establish a budget before any meaningful looking can take place. Or did I miss that post?

[TomAndLee]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

OP,

You really need to establish a budget before any meaningful looking can take place. Or did I miss that post?

Yes, we do have a set budget, hence the compromising we will do

I was most curious about the sugar scoop transoms and about what year they were introduced. I originally said swim platforms and didn't realize they could be added (duh) until Ann talked about it.
We would like the space and easier way of getting off and on the boat vs side ladders and such.

I was wondering year because I do need to stay in our budget and I would like to do more research on particular boats including their year to get an idea if they are structurally sound or worth looking at. I understand maintenance is huge but I have come to realize some years of boats just don't seem to 'hold up' as well as others.

This is probably a naive comment to make but I'll put it out there anyway. I just can't believe how expensive something can be and still seem to deteriorate so easily and often. I'm not scared of maintenance or minor repair work, I'm quite handy as I do not believe there are his n her jobs on a boat...or life in general. I believe we play to our individual strengths, at least that is how Tom and I do it. We don't keep score and we try to learn from each other so we can get better. It doesn't mean we always sound sweet while doing it but, we play for the greater good.

Sorry, probably rambled too much. You did ask a simple question...so yes, we do have a budget.

[Kenomac]

Generally speaking, in life, one usually gets what one pays for.

So if you look at older boats, the re-fit work and maintenance is going to be high. Sure you might save some money on the purchase, but eventually you'll need to put money back in and spend lots of time working on the boat.

Buy a newer boat and the money and time into it will be less. The most money that can be wasted is buying a boat too small, never being happy, then having to sell and buy again. Or quit.