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wyb2 · 31-01-2023, 12:14

Interesting how it’s been mentioned by multiple people that trying to record an argument on a go pro is an escalation and not appropriate.

But it’s also being consistently noted that there’s no evidence (and after some recent posts, I’m guessing this will change to insufficient evidence) to determine what actually happened.

Catch 22, huh?

Na Mara · 31-01-2023, 12:35

Surely the only time it is ever on to pull a gun on crew is if they are intent on harming you, other crew, or endangering the boat (which indirectly does both the above). The OP was doing none of those three things according to the accounts given here. Thus no matter who was at fault originally, the skipper went waaaaayyyyy out of bounds when he pulled a gun and made the OP literally swim for his life. I don’t care what else happened, as long as the OP wasn’t a physical threat to captain or vessel, the skipper was in the wrong here and should be prosecuted if some jurisdiction to do so can be found. End of.

Anyone reading this thread would have to be nuts to sail with that guy.

OliveJuice · 31-01-2023, 12:45

The fact that this thread is filled with victim blaming AKA let's doubt the victim is disgusting. The potential for internet slander towards some russian ******* seems more important than the cautionaury tale being told here.

No wonder women don't bother accusing their sexual abusers.

jeanathon · 31-01-2023, 12:53

Picking Ben's story apart for lessons.
Russians are like bears. Don't poke bears with a stick...
Seriously Iphones are not magic. They cannot make a Bahamian go fast boat appear out of nowhere or indeed even long after any altercation took place.
If we feel the need to call authorities it is probably unwise to inform a pissed off bear that authorities will be here any hour now. Best keep that info under wraps until said authorities appear if they do. If Mr. Bear had some weed he'd rather not throw overboard or whatever, but now has to because authorities were called then at that point he might start considering getting rid of the guy poking him with a stick.

Same thing with the Ipad. As to recording with the gopro I would say go ahead and record, but do it while going to pack your stuff as requested. Sitting there, and taunting bear with Mr. GoPro would never end well.

Just the break in the argument of going below might have gone a long way to defusing the argument, and might have resulted in Ben getting to Georgetown unmolested.
Just my take.

poopship · 31-01-2023, 13:20

For real, involving foreign authorities over a verbal disagreement is a nuclear option and guaranteed to put the captain in fight or flight mode. He's lucky he didnt have to walk the plank right then and there!
If captain says youre out pack your bags, then maybe he should have done so and let the situation chill a bit.
I dont think Id want to share a boat with either of these people!

**JPA Cate** · 31-01-2023, 13:30

@Ben Cahan,

First, I want to say that sounds like the trip from hell! Many years ago in the Marquesas, a young man from another boat swam over to us, and asked for a ride to Papeete, due to skipper abuse. It was a case of a German skipper and a young, American crew, but also a cross cultural situation like yours. Scant comfort, to know you're not the first.

Good on you for deciding to move on from this, and of course, the losses of your stuff are a big hit, and it will take time to recover from the fear and outrage you must have felt. Fwiw, I have been VERY angry at someone - a long time ago in my lifetime - and I want to say to not be surprised if it takes some emotional work to get to a point of forgiveness for the various harms that were done you.

In terms of crewing for strangers, my husband and have never taken on crew who were unknown to us, for the simple reason that it is just as dangerous to take on strange crew as to be crew to a stranger. However, we have known other couples who took on crew they didn't know very well, with extremely negative outcome. My point here is for you to make a plan for investigating a prospective skipper, if possible talk to someone who has crewed for them. Also, as was suggested above, spend the extra $$ to buy changeable tickets, till you're sure you've honed your interviewing skills, to the point you can keep yourself safe. Always have a backup plan. Hopefully, go for a daysail with the person and use your gut to tell you if you're a good fit. If you've been looking for a cheap ride to an exotic location, you may have to kiss a lot of frogs.

The analogy above likening your abuse to sexual abuse of female crew is interesting, but part of what you described was involving behavior that did escalate the problems. You might investigate alternative behaviors that might de-escalate. It might also help to learn about the cultural differences in advance if it is a cross/cultural situation. In the situation I mentioned above, the young man had not really understood the skipper's ideas of what was expected of him--including that the skipper is like a god on his own boat, of the food that would be provided, or the berthing arrangements. When you interview a new to you skipper, there are a whole lot of expectations to ask about. Make yourself a list of what to ask that will help you avoid a similar situation another time. Use mind and gut to determine compatibility.

Finally, there are a number of recent and some older threads here about cruising. You might find them of interest. Use the CF Custom Google search under the Search button.

Good luck with it.

Ann

dannc · 31-01-2023, 14:09

In the interest of lessons learned....

Filming someone is passive aggressive in this kind of situation. Pulling out a recording device and filming someone, especially in a situation that is turning pear shape, is an escalation. One needs to deescalate. People will whip out a recording device to intimidate people, or at least try too. Not saying the OP was intended to this but I have seen it done.

Now a days, it seems to be an automatic reaction in some situations to pull out a video record device, and start recording, even when people should be helping, talking, running, etc., instead of filming.

If one thinks a situation should be recorded, do it as casually has possible, and maybe just record audio. Having said that, in some jurisdictions and situations, that might be illegal.

Later,
Dan

Montanan · 31-01-2023, 14:24

What happened to the good old days: Smile you are on Candid Camera moments. Geez, IMHO being video recorded in today's world of mobile devices is the norm and should not be cause for escalation.

Montanan · 31-01-2023, 14:34

As to pulling the gun and threatening and intimidating with it that is definitely against the law everywhere, and specifically at The Bahamas.

"If you have a firearm on board, you must declare it with Bahamian Customs. Only shotguns and handguns are allowed in Bahamian waters with calibers not exceeding .308. You must provide the serial number, name of the manufacturer, plus an exact count of ammunition. While you are allowed to have a firearm on your boat, you cannot remove it from the vessel. Weapons must be under lock and key at all times."

Sound like you met with a whacko cruiser, as has been suggested in prior posts always investigate the character of persons that you intend to engage with. Never pick up crew or become crew to strangers.

Kd9truck · 31-01-2023, 14:39

I have a very good Buddhist friend he would ask:
What part did you play? you can not argue with yourself.
Your story is yours, He has a story too.

No argument/ disagreement is 100% one persons fault, you can not have an argument with yourself mate.

I don’t know either one of you at all but
It sounds like you both misrepresented your selves to each other.

But Ben, No plan B in place?
you rolled the dice mate
we all have different risk/reward thresholds.

Glad you’re not a news headline as if that’s a thing anyone.
Cheers

Kd9truck · 31-01-2023, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUDDLE JUMPER II

150% man... Like from different worlds...

100% it’s like they had to live imprisoned in a communist state right?

Overdue · 31-01-2023, 16:41

Just A Footnote: to the admonitions about crewing for a stranger captain or accepting a stranger to crew: sometimes it does work without incident.

I subscribe to more than one sailing forum and I had never heard of Crewbay.com. Last year I stumbled upon a post (in general sailing category) looking for 1 crew for a few day coastal cruise from FLA up towards (but before Hatteras), after someone canceled last minute. I had flexibility in my schedule, and it sounded like fun, so I emailed, he emailed back, we chatted on the tele and we agreed I would join him. On the tele we "interviewed" each other, exchanged last names and tele numbers of our wives (so they could contact each other if we disappeared). I think it was obvious that after we exchanged last names and hometowns, that, within 2 minutes, we were Googling each other, maybe even checking criminal record searches of each other. So less than 48 hours later I was on a plane to FL, where he met me at the airport, and the next day we headed out to the Gulf Stream to head North to his destination port, just the two of us. He decided we would flip-flop 3-hour shifts, helm watch/sleep. We were lucky that 95% of the time we were on autopilot with 8-18knt winds and the Gulf Stream helped a little. We reached the destination marina when expected, enjoyed a dinner out, and the next day we shook hands, uber got me to the local airport and I flew home, having enjoyed a few days in the ocean aboard a nice boat with a captain with much more experience, so I learned. I think most, if not all, crewing on coastal-cruises will be learning experiences. We were basically strangers with very little time to vet each other.

I had bareboat chartered many times, so I was probably a little over-qualified for what he needed, and he was conservative enough (and his boat fully equipped) that I felt safe. The above advice (look for red flags, listen to your gut, etc.) is all good as well. Maybe I am naive, but I think most people on sailboats (at least most I have met) are genuinely nice, friendly and well-grounded.

jeanathon · 31-01-2023, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montanan

What happened to the good old days: Smile you are on Candid Camera moments. Geez, IMHO being video recorded in today's world of mobile devices is the norm and should not be cause for escalation.

There definitely have been a few paparazzi who've been popped in the face for pointing a camera at people.
It's never a good idea to point anything at another person during a heated argument.

**Jammer** · 31-01-2023, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

No argument/ disagreement is 100% one persons fault, you can not have an argument with yourself mate.

This simply is not true, though I am thankful that Kd9truck among others have managed to live a life where they have not encountered difficulties with intractable individuals.

Because the thing is that there are people who are unreasonable, who see conflict as the normal relationship between two adults, who see life as a zero sum game. Many, perhaps most, of them are dealing with personal ogres of one kind or another, mental illness, PTSD, addiction, family of origin problems, etc. Some of them are grown-up playground bullies who need victims around them to define themselves. Some of them are rich and entitled. They all lack empathy, a sense of limits, and a concept of fairness.

The best thing to do when encountering them, is leave.

The trouble is that leaving ordinarily comes at a cost. You have to quit a job, move out, take the wrong exit on the freeway, leave your cart of groceries in the checkout line, walk away from an inheritance, leave the restaurant before the entree comes, disown your child, break up the band, move to another neighborhood, or cancel travel plans.

Wise and powerful people see it coming a long way away and have the resources to be able to afford the cost.

As for everyone else, well, that doesn't make it their fault.