Gender roles in sailing and cruising

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I guess it would be possible to rotate who is designated Capt. if ego is a problem. The important thing is not having a committee discussion in an emergency situation.

Seems to be two things here:


1 - ego. A difficult and personal trait to deal with, and not necessarily sailing related.


2 - Emergency situation. Covered by Mike's comment and other replies.


Collaboration is a key ingredient in successful relationships. Mike's and others' question why not on a boat, too? Not unreasonable.


While I am not a full time cruiser, we have been sailing for many, many years, and I earlier reported of only one "emergency" in all those years which only took me some repetition to get my point across to my crew (wife) who actually was the person who identified the overheating problem to begin with. We had trained ourselves to check the engine temperature regularly because our idiot buzzer is anemic.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I guess it would be possible to rotate who is designated Capt. if ego is a problem. The important thing is not having a committee discussion in an emergency situation.

Depends on the personalities. There are some people who ask questions and want to consider various alternatives at the worst possible time, either as a coping strategy for dealing with stress, or as a mechanism for being able to ascribe blame after the event (by registering their lack of concurrence with whatever is being done). That's bad.


Other people can work together fine under pressure.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Not under sail. She doesn't have enough arm or hand strength to operate the sheet winches, even under benign conditions. It would have been different had we started sailing before her illness.



Like many sailboats with outboard motors, the controls on mine are awkward to use, and she has trouble with those too. With an inboard she would do better.

Have you tried teaching her how to heave to? Nothing involved except turning the wheel. I've used this to pick up lots of blown off hats!!! Assumes you're not running downwind...


Understand the motor issue.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Depends on the personalities. There are some people who ask questions and want to consider various alternatives at the worst possible time, either as a coping strategy for dealing with stress, or as a mechanism for being able to ascribe blame after the event (by registering their lack of concurrence with whatever is being done). That's bad.


Other people can work together fine under pressure.

Those who want to ask questions and want to consider alternatives have no place on board in an critical situation. JMHO

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Those who want to ask questions and want to consider alternatives have no place on board in an critical situation. JMHO

That might be a bit too general, IMO.

Undoubtedly there can be a split-second critical situation but in addition there could be more of a think-about-it critical situation. A skipper doesn't ALWAYS have to make a quick decision in critical situations. A discussion of alternatives can be desirable is some situations.

If the boat is about to hit a reef, then obviously the commands should be loud, clear, and without debate.
If the boat develops a slow leak, then the decision to hit the EPIRB button could probably wait a little while until all experienced crew discusses alternatives, no?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by cyan

That might be a bit too general, IMO.

Undoubtedly there can be a split-second critical situation but in addition there could be more of a think-about-it critical situation. A skipper doesn't ALWAYS have to make a quick decision in critical situations. A discussion of alternatives can be desirable is some situations.

If the boat is about to hit a reef, then obviously the commands should be loud, clear, and without debate.
If the boat develops a slow leak, then the decision to hit the EPIRB button could probably wait a little while until all experienced crew discusses alternatives, no?

A discussion should be at a Captain's option. Hopefully he/she are the best qualified. I'm not speaking of the guy calling himself Captain because he can afford the boat and buys a cap with that on it.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I'm not speaking of the guy calling himself Captain because he can afford the boat and buys a cap with that on it.

This sounds like another thread, but what do you do with a Captain hat gift when you are indeed the captain but frown upon such things? In full disclosure, the "Captain" koozie does get used, but that's more of a "hey that's my drink" type thing.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by cyan

This sounds like another thread, but what do you do with a Captain hat gift when you are indeed the captain but frown upon such things? In full disclosure, the "Captain" koozie does get used, but that's more of a "hey that's my drink" type thing.

Now that is reasonable.

[BlueSlue]

Originally Posted by Jammer

So, is that what it's like out there in cruising land? Traditional male-led relationships? Sometimes carefully papered over with a thin layer of egalitarianism and feminism?

I feel like you asking for a generalization of what types of relationships are seen in the cruising world and 8 pages in, I have only seen one comment (by Ann) that gives a such a generalization. People so far have talked about their own relationships or sexism in boating and the conversation has devolved into to some chest thumping. So that is interesting in itself. Maybe not enough responders here have actually spent enough time cruising to form observations about other cruisers. I know I haven't, I'll talk about what I have experienced like everyone else here.
At my very traditional yacht club, most of the wives knew nothing about running a boat and had no interest in stepping up to the job. From a safety point of view, that is not ideal.

But I sail (often racing) with quite a few women of various ages who are extremely capable. One of whom is a licensed captain. My experience has been that men consistently underestimate women's skills and will immediately try to be the boss until they are stood up to. Men will assume that another man is more capable and the woman is less capable. As an example, this happened to me recently in a race where we had a lot of substitute crew, including two men who were completely inexperienced. The two men got assigned my job (jib trim) and my suggestions that I continue to do the job I had been doing all along were ignored. So, I thought fine, I'll just sit on the rail and not worry about it - until we did our first dry run and the two new guys fouled up things pretty good. At that point, I stepped in and took leadership of the position and "suggested" to the guys how we should coordinate the position, which they followed and we had no more snafus. The young, male tactician who had assigned these positions realized that he had screwed up and apologized to me several times afterwards. So, the fact that he had realized that his bias made for a bad decision is at least some progress, I guess.

Originally Posted by Jammer

Is that a reflection of society at large?
Or is there something about cruising that attracts strong men and women who are willing to accept a voyage where they are not a full partner?

This is an enormously complex question. I think there are innate temperamental differences between men and women, but I believe those are tendencies, not set in stone. And those tendencies are reinforced by societal expectations. In sailing as others have pointed out - experience counts for a lot and it's pretty common for men to have more sailing experience than women. Women don't seem to be drawn to the sport as much as men, probably because they are not introduced to it as frequently or because women tend to be more risk adverse? I really don't know. But I would guess in the cruising community, there are plenty of women who are just not as skilled, or they are not as good at men at pretending they are skilled. Men bluff a lot more and overestimate and overstate their skills pretty frequently whereas a women tend to be less confident in themselves and dislike jockeying for a leadership role. These tendencies, I believe, is one reason why sexism persists.

Back to gender roles in cruising. However a couple divides up their jobs, if they are both satisfied with those roles I don't think you can call it sexism even if the roles are pretty traditionally pink and blue. However, underestimating what women are capable of, making assumptions about their roles, and dismissing women's experience of the world (ie. "I haven't noticed sexism, therefore it doesn't exist" type statements) is sexism. So is denigrating men who don't live up to manly stereotypes and homophobia, because associating feminine traits with a man makes them lesser or weak. Femininity is bad in this worldview unless it associated with a non-threatening, weaker female that upholds the man's inflated view of his superiority in the pecking order. And women can be pretty sexist, too; it's not always the men.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Those who want to ask questions and want to consider alternatives have no place on board in an critical situation. JMHO

Again, I ask; what are the “critical situations” that you find yourself in so often that you need to set up such rigid hierarchical (and I would say anachronistic) chain of command? I’ve now cruised seasonally (~6 months per year) for over 15 years. I’ve travelled some challenging waters. I can think of not even a 1/2 dozen “critical situations” where split second decisions were needed. On our boat, the helm's person makes this call. We switch helm duties daily. It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with being wise and safe.

So yes, there is the ‘running up on reef’ or ‘engine is about to seize’ events. These demand speed and clarity. But unless you’re pushing the cruising limits, or particularly unlucky or incompetent, these events are not happening with any regularity.

Most crisis situations are best dealt with rationally, and with a clear head. In my experience most of the ‘crisis situations’ involve a number of factors which can produce a complex challenge. Our last one involved a sudden nose-on gale-against-current, with poor sail configuration, with an engine threatening to seize due to a slow oil leak, on a lee shore in the dark at the end of three-day passage. In these situations we find that two heads are usually better than one. And the time it may take to quickly consult usually results in better outcomes for everyone.

Every cruising couple has a different dynamic, but I know no couple which cruises where one member (the male) is the only one who can make substantive decisions. It might happen for a shore time, but I guarantee you this is how we end up with solo (male) cruisers.

[gamayun]

Thank you, BlueSlue, Jammer and Mike, for your perspectives. Very well said

[cyan]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

But I sail (often racing) with quite a few women of various ages who are extremely capable. One of whom is a licensed captain. My experience has been that men consistently underestimate women's skills and will immediately try to be the boss until they are stood up to.

I've had the opposite experience. I race almost every week during the "season" here, done by this time of year. Our boat often has new crew members because, well, people work. We always have a mixed crew of 7 or so, and the recruiting effort is aimed at women. (cuz male crew is easy to find)

We'll put new crew on the main sheet, then maybe to grinder. There is NO special treatment for (or against) women. However, the grinder spots are a sweaty workout because our skipper loves to "practice" MANY quick tacks an hour before the race. The only gender-specific treatment is that if a grinder MAN slows down because his arm is tired, then we are all free to razz him. Loudly. If a grinder WOMAN slows down because her arm is tired, then she can shift to do all the tailing and nobody is allowed to tease. Sexist? Sure. So what. We race for fun. We share beers afterward.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Thank you, BlueSlue, Jammer and Mike, for your perspectives. Very well said

Agreed, but what about some of the equally well-articulated perspectives that you didn't happen to agree with? Or daletournier's obvious point awhile back that the person in charge is and should often be the boat owner since that is the person taking the greatest risk and the one who has the greatest responsibility? There have been several women who have responded who obviously have equal responsibilities or, like yourself, are the boat owners themselves. Why haven't you asked them your same question as applied to male crew? What would you do?

Sorry, but your question was rhetorical and loaded with assumptions & stereotypes, the very defn.* of "sexism" that several on this thread have -- rather ironically -- explicitly or implicitly raised. Your question (at least your initial ones) had little to do with merely the gender-neutral issue concerning a female crew's ability to pick up a MOB that you cited later on. Fortunately, your question (in its various forms) was pretty thoroughly answered in the way most people who don't see such issues through some sort of identity prism would see it. The answers we've read have little or nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with competence, experience, and in some cases physical strength. As a boat owner myself, I cannot imagine not having the goal of any of my crew -- male, female, partner, non-partner, whatever -- operating and maintaining my boat as well as I can. Why wouldn't that be the case, especially in the case of long-distance cruisers? And as has been pointed out, a division of responsibilities based on competence or desirability -- even if that division results in "traditional" roles -- doesn't and shouldn't necessarily imply a "sexist" relationship.

As for your female sailing students who are afraid to take boats out on their own (i.e. w/o their male partners), you are making an assumption that the reason for this is simply sexism. If in fact this is true, then what on earth are those women doing onboard (or with those men) to begin with? True equality is a two-way street. Not just demanding "rights," but also taking responsibility for not becoming victimized. Are those women you speak of not acting on their own free will?

*Sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism

[Exile]

Originally Posted by cyan

The only gender-specific treatment is that if a grinder MAN slows down because his arm is tired, then we are all free to razz him. Loudly. If a grinder WOMAN slows down because her arm is tired, then she can shift to do all the tailing and nobody is allowed to tease. Sexist? Sure. So what. We race for fun. We share beers afterward.

I don't see how this is "sexist." But it certainly sounds like fun!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Again, I ask; what are the “critical situations” that you find yourself in so often that you need to set up such rigid hierarchical (and I would say anachronistic) chain of command? I’ve now cruised seasonally (~6 months per year) for over 15 years. I’ve travelled some challenging waters. I can think of not even a 1/2 dozen “critical situations” where split second decisions were needed. On our boat, the helm's person makes this call. We switch helm duties daily. It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with being wise and safe.

So yes, there is the ‘running up on reef’ or ‘engine is about to seize’ events. These demand speed and clarity. But unless you’re pushing the cruising limits, or particularly unlucky or incompetent, these events are not happening with any regularity.

Most crisis situations are best dealt with rationally, and with a clear head. In my experience most of the ‘crisis situations’ involve a number of factors which can produce a complex challenge. Our last one involved a sudden nose-on gale-against-current, with poor sail configuration, with an engine threatening to seize due to a slow oil leak, on a lee shore in the dark at the end of three-day passage. In these situations we find that two heads are usually better than one. And the time it may take to quickly consult usually results in better outcomes for everyone.

Every cruising couple has a different dynamic, but I know no couple which cruises where one member (the male) is the only one who can make substantive decisions. It might happen for a shore time, but I guarantee you this is how we end up with solo (male) cruisers.

Along with entire books written mostly by women describing how their otherwise reasonable & fair-minded husbands on land turn into Capt Bligh's once onboard! It certainly happens, and we've probably all witnessed it to some degree watching inexperienced couples trying to dock.

I don't know about "critical" situations, but in my experience there have been plenty of times when there are several viable options to deal with potentially dicey situations and it comes down to a judgment call. The analysis & discussion is always collaborative, but in the end someone has to make a decision. The most obvious which come to mind are weather-related, but also choices that have to be made with regard to navigation, ports of call, anchoring, strange boats following too closely in the dead of night, passing scenarios with other vessels, etc., etc.

You and your wife are obviously well matched and sound like often of the same mind when it comes to such decision making, but that's not always the case with different crew members.