It May be Legal. Or is it?

[bill352]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Perhaps it's time for me to speak to my local Senator and or Congressman.

Not to discourage participation in the democratic process, but I just spoke to my local (state) Congressman on a different issue, and here is his reply:


"Thank you for taking the time to send your thoughts and concerns regarding an important issue. I certainly value input from my constituents and I will keep your comments in mind as I move towards this upcoming Legislative Session."

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Perhaps it's time for me to speak to my local Senator and or Gongressman. I doubt that the State of Florida would look into unfair and deceptive practices in the boating industry due to large economic impact the industry has in the state.

Actually, Florida is probably one of the few states where the legislature can do something about it. Brokers in Florida are required to have a license. I think I once heard that California also licenses brokers, but I'm not sure about that. In any case, Florida is either the only one, or one of only two states that require brokers to be licensed.

Hence, there is at least a state agency that already sets standards and oversees broker activities. In other states, anybody who wants to can call themselves a broker, and there is no state agency to regulate their activity.

If this was a Florida-licensed broker who you talked to, then you should contact the the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes, which is within the Department of Business and Professional Regulation. They would be the ones to handle a complaint against a licensee.

[Manateeman]

Put all this past stuff out of your mind. I’ve built in almost every material. Find an aluminum yacht. Find someone who is certified for vessel inspection by USCG and has good references...or go to the Netherlands and have it built for you.
You get what you pay for.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his “Drink beer, flatten can, TIG weld boat...repeat.”manatee crew of professional boatbuilders.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is the wrong energy.

Just move on. It’s hard enough to get the right boat without wasting energy on hate and some kind of vendetta.

Nobody ripped you off. Nobody took your money.

They aren’t obligated to disclose that the boat was in a hurricane any more than someone is obligated to tell buyers a car was in an accident once.

It’s your job to figure that stuff out with a car fax report or in the case of a boat, your surveyor if necessary.

Take all the energy you feel like wasting on this and put it into finding a different boat.

You’re on the path to unhappiness. Leave all that negativity behind and start living the boat life today. It’s a life that doesn’t involve these vengeful ways of thinking.

So if a bank robbery is foiled and the money is not stolen then it’s just: “ Better luck next time, see ya!”?

If a government leader attempts to overthrow the government but fails then it’s No harm, No foul?

A broker attempted to fraudulently sell you a hurricane boat, but since you found out, it’s all OK?

It may be negative energy, but don’t we have a greater responsibility to the community of boaters to self-police? Turning and looking away from bad behavior that can harm our fellow boaters because of bad vibes is simply selfish self-centered behavior that shows a distinct lack of good citizenship and care for ones fellow citizens.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by bill352

Not to discourage participation in the democratic process, but I just spoke to my local (state) Congressman on a different issue, and here is his reply:


"Thank you for taking the time to send your thoughts and concerns regarding an important issue. I certainly value input from my constituents and I will keep your comments in mind as I move towards this upcoming Legislative Session."

You forgot to sign the check......

[valhalla360]

Unless you can show that it was incorrectly repaired...you really don't have a complaint unless the broker specifically stated it WASN'T in a hurricane (which would be a lie and thus misrepresentation). Omission is generally not illegal, the burden is on you to ask questions important to you.

What if you are deathly allergic to cats and he didn't let you know the prior owner had a cat on board? Would you consider it deception that he didn't randomly tell you the prior owner had a cat when you never asked about it?

Any large cruising boat, pay for a good survey and make the sale contingent upon it. It's not 100% but it should turn up most obvious issues.

It would be nice if he was up front but unfortunately brokers who are up front with every little issue, don't last long because they scare buyers away.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

A broker attempted to fraudulently sell you a hurricane boat, but since you found out, it’s all OK?

It was a long first post, so maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where any fraud was perpetrated. In fact, the broker indicated that he sent an insurance document that covered the hurricane damage...barring evidence to the contrary, from a legal perspective, we must presume it was innocently lost in transmission with no intent at fraud.

So yeah, it's OK.

Now if the OP had asked and was specifically told, there was no hurricane damage, that would be fraud....but the first post indicated, the broker did admit to hurricane damage when the OP asked about it.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It was a long first post, so maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where any fraud was perpetrated. In fact, the broker indicated that he sent an insurance document that covered the hurricane damage...barring evidence to the contrary, from a legal perspective, we must presume it was innocently lost in transmission with no intent at fraud.

So yeah, it's OK.

Now if the OP had asked and was specifically told, there was no hurricane damage, that would be fraud....but the first post indicated, the broker did admit to hurricane damage when the OP asked about it.

The “lost” insurance papers is a huge red flag. Funny how the only document that failed to transmit was that one...... Not! Offenses of omission are just as serious as offenses of commission.
It looks like this persons scheme is to “lose” the offending documents and hope that the buyer will not ask any questions. Sure you will eventually find out after spending a ton of money on travel and a survey, but then you have already been harmed. This may very well be within the letter of the law, but is it moral? Ethical? I think not and as far as I am concerned it is a fraud upon the buyer.

[Paul Kelly]

Well done on getting back to fitness from some horrible sounding depths, so you can go sailing.

I think your post has answered your questions. There are plenty of boats on the market. Take a bit more time, frustrating though that may be, and find one with a clear history and an honest seller.

Walk away Renee.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

this question has been asked elsewhere:
should we reveal the names of the disappointing company/broker or not?

this is a huge question because social media amplifies, for better or for worse. as participants, we need to aware of the impact we can have: bad reviews can put a good company that made one mistake out of business, just as it can propel another off the charts...

i think that GoingWalkabout has done well to discuss the underlying moral issue, the responsibility issue, as these lie at the core of the matter.


wolfgal

If you were concerned about causing difficulty for someone who "made one mistake" you wouldn't be writing your congressman or law enforcement asking them to take action against the company. Hence my pointing out the incongruity.

I run a business, every interaction one of my employees has matters. If they were to be less than fully forthright and upfront with a customer, as clearly happened here if the account is accurate, then I would feel I fully deserved that it was mentioned in social media. Unethical or not, that doesn't pass the golden rule test with me and it's not the way I run my company. In fact, if it shows up in social media it actually alerts me to an issue and allows me to fix it, so that's a plus. If that one mention puts me out of business, then I'm not a very good businessman and don't deserve to be in business!

On the other hand, almost every issue an individual has with a company is an isolated issue to them. Only when they let everyone know they've had the issue can everyone else see that something similar happened to lots of other folks and so maybe it's not so isolated. Or not, in which case by this point in the world of online reviews we're all able to spot a single abbraration and treat it as such.

Companies are big boys and girls playing in the real world, no need to put the kids gloves on to protect our delicate reputations. Especially when advocating that one is trying to protect others who will be in the same situation in the future.

[Stewie12]

Sounds like you no longer feel comfortable with the broker. Neither would I. Walk away and find another yacht.

[captlloyd]

Just wondering why you want or need an almost 50 foot cat ? That is a lot of boat ! 38-40 foot would be plenty unless you have a big crew. And they will go most anywhere.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

The “lost” insurance papers is a huge red flag. Funny how the only document that failed to transmit was that one...... Not! Offenses of omission are just as serious as offenses of commission.
It looks like this persons scheme is to “lose” the offending documents and hope that the buyer will not ask any questions. Sure you will eventually find out after spending a ton of money on travel and a survey, but then you have already been harmed. This may very well be within the letter of the law, but is it moral? Ethical? I think not and as far as I am concerned it is a fraud upon the buyer.

Since this was a question of legality, unless you can prove the document was purposely "lost", you have nothing.

Limited to only what was written by the OP with no feedback from the broker's side of the story, your are making huge assumptions regarding the broker's intent.

I may or may not trust that broker anymore but legally, you got nada.

[jim King]

Brokers are working for the boat owners and are not obliged to give you an answer if you don't ask the right questions. Once you have found out that the boat was hurricane damaged it is time to move on. Not worth the discounted price to get a boat that you might not be able to rely on as you cross vast oceans.
Finally, yes, get a thorough survey by a local who is not associated with the boat owners.
And, yes, get some experience under your belt on a similar cat before you make the plunge.
cheers, and welcome to the possibilities of life on the open water.
jim

[jmschmidt]

My 47' Power Cat went through Irma and came out with $166,000 in damage, 100% covered by insurance. In fact, a valuation survey following the damage and repairs came out at $5,000 more the I paid for the boat out of the Moorings charter fleet.

I would not let these gelcoat cracks bother you if they are minor. Look at them yourself close up and take a friend or boatyard bum who knows glass work, not a surveyor. You'll still need a survey (for what little they are worth) for insurance.