It May be Legal. Or is it?

[GoingWalkabout]

Life threw me some twists and turns that had me postpone my seafaring adventures. Bed riden for nearly a year with prospects of having to live off an oxygen tank for the few incapacitated years ahead. I wasn't ready to go out that way. All through my harrowing illness with the grim prognosis, I kept watching my favorite sailing YouTube channels. They gave me that spark of motivation that stopped me from falling into the acceptance of what my doctors told me. The spark that grew into a flame of absolute determination to overcome all the odds and come hell or high water to get myself back to health so that I could follow my dream. The dream of never ending sunrises across deep blue ocean waters.

Here I am. A number of years later and having succeeded in fighting my way back to full strength. For physical therapy, the last three years I have been snow skiing every day of the season. Pushing myself to my limits. I can't believe that I am now doing slalom runs hitting between 50 to 60 miles an hour. My physical endurance is now so good that I can ski from 9am to 4am with only a short break for lunch.

So here I am. Ready and more than able to pursue my ocean going dream. Thank heavens.

Last week I received an email from a very large charter company broker. Offering me a deal on a 48 foot cat. We discussed on the phone the details of the boat. He sent me pics. Told me that the sale didn't go through and it was just back on the market.

Here is the kicker. I noticed in what the broker sent me that the gel coat had some minor cracks. My internal antenna went up. After a week of back and forth I sent him an email asking if the boat had ever been damaged during a hurricane. Up until this point he had presented the boat as coming out of the charter program.

He was put on the spot. So he answered by not denying it had been damaged but it was all explained in the supposed insurance document he said he sent me which I never received.

I called him and for the first time he admitted it was indeed damaged in a hurricane. The first issue I have that in his pretty pictures of the boat and emails to me he didn't tell me up front about its hurricane damage history. I was lead to believe it was just coming out of the normal charter program.

Second, since it has been repaired by the charter company, there is no way of independently know or verifying what and where any damage was done to the boat.

This presents a huge problem for any prospective second boat owner. What kind of damage did she actually have. Penetration of the hull. Or perhaps cracks that allowed water seepage into the boats core. Here is the big problem for me. If the new gelcoat was applied to cover up cracks without a tear back to the core to visually inspect the core the boat could have serious structural issues. Issues that could in fact compromise the safety of the vessel itself.

I'm looking at taking a boat across oceans. I will not buy a boat that has any doubts about its structural integrity. In my thinking I would prefer to deal with a boat that has all of its cracks and whatever visible. So that I could strip it back to the core in the damaged areas and if needed even replace water damaged core. I think that having undocumented gel coat repairs on a vessel is like putting lipstick on a pig.

So after my long winded post here us the punchline. We have a very large boat brokerage representing falsely a boat as coming off charter without disclosing up front that it is a hurricane damaged boat. To compound matters, no before repairs pictures have been made available.

This is very deceptive behavior. It casts a serious cloud over any vessel being offered "out of the charter fleet " by this charter company and its brokers.

In my simple thinking who now knows what boats out there have just had filler and new gel coat slapped on to sell to the unsuspecting public.

How many cats out there that are really pigs dressed up with lipstick? Do sales by USA brokers have to adhere to Federal deceptive practices laws? Is my experience only the tip of the iceberg of unscrupulous business tactics being used to offload millions of dollars worth of boats to unsuspecting owners?

I would seriously like to hear from others their thoughts on this. Thanks.

[EarlWer]

These guys are upfront about their work. They document most of the work and I find it very interesting. They currently have 2 cats that they are renovating to sell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D7g...gParlayRevival

They have a 3rd cat in Panama that needs structural repairs... which is why they are fixing these...

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by EarlWer

These guys are upfront about their work. They document most of the work and I find it very interesting. They currently have 2 cats that they are renovating to sell.

They have a 3rd cat in Panama that needs structural repairs... which is why they are fixing these...

Thanks. These guys definitely know what they are doing. I have also watched their videos and have learned so much from them.

[flyingfin]

Caveat emptor. Whether it is a house, a car or a boat you always have to be on guard.
Remember all those cars that got flooded in the hurricanes that hit Houston? Saw thousands of them parked in farm fields in Louisiana being auctioned off and taken around the country by used car dealers. Any boat that survived hurricane damage in the islands during the last few years were quickly put back in charter service. Other vessels got totaled by the insurance carriers, Owners made good and then sold at auction. No telling who did the repairs. It is legal as long as the Seller & Broker play dumb. I have looked at buying a home in states where the Seller must fill out a disclosure form regarding prior damage, insurance claims, location of septic tank or well,,,,,and amazingly many just put N/A or Unknown as their answer, perfectly legal.
Try to find a vessel where you can meet the owner, find out how long their name has been on the title/documentation. Seller and Broker are on the same team,,,,,make sure you take your team with you. And watch the post hurricane videos from BVI on youtube you will not see many cats that were not trashed.

[boatpoker]

Hurricane Sandy and the Used Boat Market

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by flyingfin

Caveat emptor. Whether it is a house, a car or a boat you always have to be on guard.
Remember all those cars that got flooded in the hurricanes that hit Houston? Saw thousands of them parked in farm fields in Louisiana being auctioned off and taken around the country by used car dealers. Any boat that survived hurricane damage in the islands during the last few years were quickly put back in charter service. Other vessels got totaled by the insurance carriers, Owners made good and then sold at auction. No telling who did the repairs. It is legal as long as the Seller & Broker play dumb. I have looked at buying a home in states where the Seller must fill out a disclosure form regarding prior damage, insurance claims, location of septic tank or well,,,,,and amazingly many just put N/A or Unknown as their answer, perfectly legal.
Try to find a vessel where you can meet the owner, find out how long their name has been on the title/documentation. Seller and Broker are on the same team,,,,,make sure you take your team with you. And watch the post hurricane videos from BVI on youtube you will not see many cats that were not trashed.

Thanks flyingfin. Your advise is sound. I would love to see one of the Federal agencies charged with protecting consumers take a look into this. Perhaps it's time for me to speak to my local Senator and or Gongressman. I doubt that the State of Florida would look into unfair and deceptive practices in the boating industry due to large economic impact the industry has in the state. You are so right about the buyer beware. Thanks.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Thanks flyingfin. Your advise is sound. I would love to see one of the Federal agencies charged with protecting consumers take a look into this. Perhaps it's time for me to speak to my local Senator and or Gongressman. I doubt that the State of Florida would look into unfair and deceptive practices in the boating industry due to large economic impact the industry has in the state. You are so right about the buyer beware. Thanks.

This is the wrong energy.

Just move on. It’s hard enough to get the right boat without wasting energy on hate and some kind of vendetta.

Nobody ripped you off. Nobody took your money.

They aren’t obligated to disclose that the boat was in a hurricane any more than someone is obligated to tell buyers a car was in an accident once.

It’s your job to figure that stuff out with a car fax report or in the case of a boat, your surveyor if necessary.

Take all the energy you feel like wasting on this and put it into finding a different boat.

You’re on the path to unhappiness. Leave all that negativity behind and start living the boat life today. It’s a life that doesn’t involve these vengeful ways of thinking.

[sailingabe41ds]

I do not know if failure of omission is legal or not nor do I care. It is not right....but it happens all the times with used cars, homes,.... As stated, do not waste your energy on this, do your homework to find that right boat, and move on.

Best,

Abe

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is the wrong energy.

Just move on. It’s hard enough to get the right boat without wasting energy on hate and some kind of vendetta.

Nobody ripped you off. Nobody took your money.

They aren’t obligated to disclose that the boat was in a hurricane any more than someone is obligated to tell buyers a car was in an accident once.

It’s your job to figure that stuff out with a car fax report or in the case of a boat, your surveyor if necessary.

Take all the energy you feel like wasting on this and put it into finding a different boat.

You’re on the path to unhappiness. Leave all that negativity behind and start living the boat life today. It’s a life that doesn’t involve these vengeful ways of thinking.

Chotu. Thanks for your advise. I tend to agree with you but I don't agree it is negative energy to try to help the hundreds of unsuspecting "suckers" who are being tricked by unscrupulous companies. Buy a new boat and the selling company doesn't back up warranty work. Your told to just such it up and fix it yourself. Life is to short to spend all your energy to force a boat sales company to honor their commitments. Hello. I don't accept that type of thinking. The boat industry is filled with shoddy service providers who cheat and steal as a matter of daily business. Now we have a huge consumer scandal of wrecked and damaged boats being dressed up and sold to unsuspecting buyers under false pretences. Don't accept that this should be ignored. This is a scandal. So when you see something that is wrong. Is it your policy to not get involved. Sit on your porch and have a beer. Just move along and don't worry about all the other people being hurt by these sheitzters. Not my style. Sorry. By the way. It's not a vendetta. It's being socially responsible.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is the wrong energy.

Just move on. It’s hard enough to get the right boat without wasting energy on hate and some kind of vendetta.

Nobody ripped you off. Nobody took your money.

They aren’t obligated to disclose that the boat was in a hurricane any more than someone is obligated to tell buyers a car was in an accident once.

It’s your job to figure that stuff out with a car fax report or in the case of a boat, your surveyor if necessary.

Take all the energy you feel like wasting on this and put it into finding a different boat.

You’re on the path to unhappiness. Leave all that negativity behind and start living the boat life today. It’s a life that doesn’t involve these vengeful ways of thinking.

+1 for Chotu!

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Now we have a huge consumer scandal of wrecked and damaged boats being dressed up and sold to unsuspecting buyers under false pretences.

And no "we" do not have a huge consumer scandal. Only you do. Unfortunately, the more you post, the more you reveal how little you know about boats and sailing.

Please start off by taking a sailing lesson, AT LEAST. Nowhere in your looong, whinging thread do you say that you have done anything other than watch YouTube videos.

REAL sailing has nothing to do with YouTube videos. Get out there and LEARN HOW TO SAIL before buying a waaay too big hurricane damaged bloody catamaran...!

[Snore]

Be sure to read this thread. It is about a person in a similar spot, albeit it at a higher price point.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3338814

[wolfgal]

WELCOME BACK, girl!!!!

i remember you from 2015, noticed that you had slipped away, have wondered about you. and i'm so happy to hear that you fought off ill-health and have gotten your endurance back up so much!!!! AMAZING!!!! yes, lately i've lost a few friends to ill-health (cancer, stroke) too, and it really hits home how important it is to make dreams come true, while we can. i admire you!!!!!

anyway, on topic: one thing i've noted over my years of boat searching: very often the brokers have NOT seen the boat themselves. the pictures listed are often provided by the owner and are not always time stamped.

so, as you can easily imagine, the broker really has no clue as to the real condition of the boat. and well, this is an easy case for
no knowledge = no moral responsibility.

and here's trap not to fall in: a broker had the audacity to ask me (that person who paid airfare and a hotel and inspected the boat from bow to stern and found all kinds of problems) to send my own photographs and inspection notes about the boat afterwards.

hot stove, once! since then, i insist to know if the broker has viewed the boat himself/herself and WHEN. and i ask for very recent photographs. if he/she cannot provide, then i move on.

as for your experience, it does appear to be another example of how we live in an anything-for-a-buck world.

it is a very good thing you noted the cracks in the photos (before making the trip to the boat) and thought to ask about hurricane damage. i'm certainly glad you did!

good luck in your boat search, girl! you are an inspiration!



wolfgal

[redneckrob]

The one thing you could do to help others from facing a similar situation that would require no more than a minute of your time and almost no energy would be to name the company you were dealing with. And maybe provide the specific listing as well.

It baffles me why someone would go through some level of awkwardness, for example typing "a very large charter company broker" instead of "XYZ Yacht Charters" to protect a company they're about to sic the feds on. If you really feel strongly, name the company. If you don't, it indicates that despite your assertions you still seem to want to maintain a relationship between your online handle @Goingwalkabout and this company, which is incongruous at best.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

The one thing you could do to help others from facing a similar situation that would require no more than a minute of your time and almost no energy would be to name the company you were dealing with. And maybe provide the specific listing as well.

It baffles me why someone would go through some level of awkwardness, for example typing "a very large charter company broker" instead of "XYZ Yacht Charters" to protect a company they're about to sic the feds on. If you really feel strongly, name the company. If you don't, it indicates that despite your assertions you still seem to want to maintain a relationship between your online handle @Goingwalkabout and this company, which is incongruous at best.

this question has been asked elsewhere:
should we reveal the names of the disappointing company/broker or not?

this is a huge question because social media amplifies, for better or for worse. as participants, we need to aware of the impact we can have: bad reviews can put a good company that made one mistake out of business, just as it can propel another off the charts...

i think that GoingWalkabout has done well to discuss the underlying moral issue, the responsibility issue, as these lie at the core of the matter.


wolfgal

[double u]

"How many cats out there that are really pigs dressed up with lipstick?" -
should read "...boats..."
answer: PLENTY!
If in (the slightest) doubt - move out!