Legal problem and a documented boat

[CarlF]

You don't have a legal problem. You've even paid the sales tax. You just have a paperwork mess that means you don't have clear title to your boat. Any future buyer will insist on a clear title.

As mentioned, the documentation companies are in the business of cleaning up this sort of thing.

There are several good documentation companies. I've used Linda Dunn several times.

https://www.mardoc.com/contact.shtml

[Mondonico]

"I have no idea if I need one who specializes in marine issues (or how to find one), or even how to find a competent and honest (is there such a animal?) one.
It's a mess, I know, and I should have dealt with it much sooner, but this is what it is. Any advice from people out there that have some knowledge of this sort of thing would be greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]"

Yes, you need a maritime attorney. Your failure to hire one long ago has put you in the situation you are in now.

There are many of us in the Seattle area as it's a large maritime center.

[fdr14127]

Originally Posted by Mallory4422

To clear up a few points; yes, I paid the sales tax (painful here in Washington at nearly 10%). As to why the state issued the registration? I have no idea. If I was a expert in documentation and title issues I wouldn't be in this fix, but I know enough to pay the taxes, and the yearly registration fee. The marina would make a fuss if the boat didn't have a current tag.
Thanks for the advice about private documentation services, and the USCG help line. I will drop a note to the USCG about the issue, with some trepidation. In my experience the government is never there to "help", and I confess I hate to admit to making such a mistake. If the USCG doesn't have a nice neat solution, I will contact a local documentation company and see what they have to say. Really appreciate all the helpful advice, and I will update as matters proceed.

My experience with the nice ladies at the CG Document Office in Falling Waters is that they are friendly,knowledgeable, and the first place to get advice on your problem. Call them and present your problem, I would be surprised if they haven't dealt with this many times before...Avoid Documentation services.

[TrentePieds]

@ #29 and #30:

The OP's problem is that he cannot prove title. A Bill of Sale is NOT proof that title has passed!

TP

[h20man]

Originally Posted by fdr14127

My experience with the nice ladies at the CG Document Office in Falling Waters is that they are friendly,knowledgeable, and the first place to get advice on your problem. Call them and present your problem, I would be surprised if they haven't dealt with this many times before...Avoid Documentation services.

I absolutely agree. The PEOPLE at the USCG documentation centre give an experience UNLIKE typical bureaucracies. Absolutely fantastic. I have dealth with them on my own boat, and have helped friends who had issues. A phone call to discuss what the issue is (if atypical) works wonders, and they are the MOST helpful government employees I have dealt with in any country.



If they were a private company, I would give the customer service that I experienced on multiple occasions top marks.



They are fantastic... Super people...

[MVDarlin]

I would contact the USCG documentation office. Ive found them to be very helpful and they can get you started on the path to proper documentation. There must be some statute of limitations that apply. Have you been paying any property taxes in WA?

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

@ #29 and #30:

The OP's problem is that he cannot prove title. A Bill of Sale is NOT proof that title has passed!

TP

No, a bill of sale is not proof title has passed, it is a prerequisite. If there are no lienholders recorded, it is the only thing needed to then pass title. The USCG will document a boat with only a bill of sale(but they want it on their form and notarized) , and so will state DMVs change title with only a bill of sale if there are no recorded lienholders.

[Montanan]

The Bill of Sale should provide proof of change in ownership. Titling and documentation are public registrations of ownership and provide for perfection of liens. Titling and documentation of a vessel are not proof of ownership, they are merely recordations of ownership. Proof is determined by a court during litigation.

If the prior owner is deceased or otherwise not available to provide written transfer of title, then one has to go through an attesting process whereby YOU provide assurance that you are the rightful owner.

Of issue is that a deletion of documentation with the USCG is to be accomplished by the request of the owner that documented the vessel or the agent of the owner. It is not done by the new buyer or a person that is not an agent of the owner.


This alternative [i.e., f'ed up] method does leave a bit of an imperfection of title recordation and will be listed in any abstract of title that one obtains from the USCG.

You will want to clarify this recordation of documentation with the USCG and / or any subsequent titling with a State of the USA, so as to be able to provide clean bill of sale and title transfer to a new owner.

As you have stated, your actions are untimely and now you have to deal with the challenges.

The USCG Vessel Documentation Center can walk you through the process. Give them a call and get on to the task. They have been through this messed up situations before.

Ignorance and procrastination are not bliss.

At the time of purchase you should have received a bill of sale and had the owner execute the sale and ownership transfer on the back of the vessel's certificate of documentation, which certificate of documentation is required to be promptly returned to the USCG upon sale or change of ownership.

Documents that are required to change documentation.

CG-1340 BILL OF SALE: Submit one original OR one copy of the bill of sale or CG1340, signed by or on behalf of all persons, transferring an interest in the vessel. Signature(s) of seller(s) must be acknowledged by a notary public. Altered bills of sale may be rejected. A copy of the bill of sale or related instrument will be returned.

CG-1270 CERTIFICATE OF DOCUMENTATION: Interest in a vessel may be
transferred by the last documented owner(s) on the reverse of the original OR copy of the Certificate of Documentation. Signature(s) of seller(s) must be acknowledged before a notary public. Altered documents may be rejected
References:

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...2Jp9L2FQ%3d%3d

Note that title to property be that real property [land] or personal property [vehicles or vessels] are not often clean, and one ends up procuring the property with the prospect of unclear ownership or lien status. One then requires relying on the written representations and assurances and covenants of the seller that ownership is unencumbered and one holds that person liable if the representations are incorrect.

Good luck.

[Mallory4422]

Thanks to all for the advice. I now have a game plan, which is more than I started with. Following Danm1's suggestion, I got a report from https://www.boat-alert.com/. It does not show the boat as documented, but I am taking this with a degree of skepticism, as the report didn't show ANY title status. There was a link in the report that led me to https://usvesselregistrar.us/nvdc/. I have requested a abstract of title from them. This should (hopefully) give me a clearer picture of where I stand vis-a-vis the title. When I get the abstract, I will send all the documents and a explanation to the USGC documentation service for their advice. Hopefully, I will be able to file a form for deletion from documentation without the need to go through a painful court process. If, for whatever reason, this gets more complicated, I will (again, hopefully) be able to engage a documentation service to deal with the issue. But first, I will try working directly with the USGC. The encouragement I've gotten on this board has made me more hopeful that they won't tie me to a anchor and throw me over the side. Probably going to take awhile to plow through all the paperwork, but I will keep this board abreast of my progress, as well as the final outcome. Thanks again for all the help, and don't hesitate to add more comments/suggestions.

[timb7734]

This is not a big problem at all. Simply go on the Coast Guard site and complete their bill of sale putting boat in your name. I wouldn’t worry about those who cannot sign, just fill it out. Then take that bill of sale in and register. Problem solved.

[garyfrankovich]

Call a Documentation Service, it will cost you a few bucks, but they will know what to do and how to fix it. At the moment you do not have clear ownership of the vessel, this will be a major problem if ever want to sell her or if you ever have a total loss claim with your insurance.

[clamshack]

I just want to say to the OP. Don’t be embarrassed! You were working hard at the time of the purchase and missed some details. You are intelligent and will get it sorted out.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Mallory4422

There was a link in the report that led me to https://usvesselregistrar.us/nvdc/. I have requested a abstract of title from them.

This is not the USCG NVDC, but a private company that tries to look like the official site in order to charge for a renewal that you can easily do yourself. Not the sort of people to do business with IMHO. This is the official site: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organiz...tation-Center/

Talk with the (real) NVDC and get their recommendations, and if things get sticky hire an admiralty lawyer (probably not needed though).

Your documentation expired a long time ago - the boat is not documented. You might be able to use the document to establish the chain of ownership to the PO, and then the bill of sale to bring it to you. However, it is my understanding that you will have to go through the process of documentation as it has been expired for far too long, even if the chain of ownership can be easily proven.

There are two distinct ways to get a state registration: the most common way is to provide evidence of ownership (less demanding than the USCG) and obtain a state title, which in turn is used to register the boat. For documented boats the state takes the document as the equivalent of a title and issues a state registration from that. These are not given the normal registration numbers for the bow; in Oregon the registration decals will have the (documentation) Official Number instead - I suspect Washington does something similar. The OP says that he does not have a state title so it looks like it is registered as a documented vessel, but in fact is not documented. Whatever the situation it is definitely wrong and will be a problem for selling the boat as neither a title or current document can be provided.

As others have said, the personal representative (executor) should have filled out the bill-of-sale on the back of the document, along with providing an official copy of the death certificate and his authority as PR. The separate bill-of-sale will also work, and if necessary the other paperwork should be available from the county's estate records. With that the OP could, and should, have transferred the document within the grace period (1 year IIRC). To document the boat now will mean a new documentation. While less desirable the OP could try to get a title from the state, using the old document and bill-of-sale; states are usually not nearly as difficult as the USCG for proof of ownership.

Good luck,

Greg

P.S. I am not a lawyer, just someone who has been around this stuff for a long time. And since things are always changing my memory may not match current reality so take it all with a pinch of salt.

[sveowyn]

I just saw this today so if you are still needing help try checking out, marinetitle.com, it’s free. You should be able to see who’s name is on the document. Also, pacificmarine.com, they are in Seattle and may be able to advise you. They did the title search for my boat 28 years. I purchased my boat in New Orleans. NOLA had a documentation office, but they began centralizing and closing centers at that time and some boats were waiting over 6 months for their documentation. New Orleans had just shipped theirs out. Pacific Marine had about 100 boats to document, so they contacted the center and asked if they could send someone to help them find the paperwork for their customers. Their offer was accepted, so I only had to wait 3 months.
Good luck.

[Mallory4422]

Update: I got the title abstract today. While, yes, this is probably something I might have acquired without the help of the title company, I think it was well worth the 75$ to have someone who knows what they are doing. When the boat was sold to me, the executor of the estate terminated the documentation. (form CG -1332). So, the good news is the boat is no longer in the former owner's name, and the form shows it's transfer to me. All well and good, but I still don't have a title document. The boat is neither documented by the CG, nor do I have a state title. But; it is progress, and I am encouraged by the CG -1332 showing the change of ownership. I am hopeful that the CG documentation service can point me down the right path to getting this fixed with out the painful process I had built up in my mind. Tomorrow I will email them with all the documents and an explanation. Fingers crossed, will write further updates as the situation progresses. Thanks again for all the helpful comments. I truly had no idea how to get started on dealing with this.