Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

[a64pilot]

I just watched the clip, the PBY never extended his floats, there was never an intent to land, whatever that’s worth.

Ever seen an amphib seaplane water land, wheels down?
You only do that once
https://youtu.be/-48V1m_MZxE

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Randy

Also NUC does not mean engines not operating. It means a vessel is disabled.

Rule 3 Definitions

(f) The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through
some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these
Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Would the exemplary instance of the row boat qualify as "a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by the Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel?

When is the circumstance exceptional enough to be eNUC?

[Captain Graham]

Looking at the big picture the Rules explain
1. In open water
First you look at the Pecking order.
If the 2 vessels are the same type you look at the Head on and Crossing rules.
Overtaking is still the same.
2. If you are in channel to then follow the channel rules.
Overtaking is still the same.
3. If you are in a western river, great lakes or waters specified by the Secretary you use those rules.
Overtaking is still the same.

Example
1. In open water a sailboat is crossing a power boat, the sailboat is the stand on vessel.
2. In open water 2 powerboats are crossing the powerboat on the starboard is the stand on vessel
3. In a channel a sailboat is crossing a power boat the power boat is the stand on vessel.
4. In a western river the down bound with following current is the stand on vessel vs an up bound vessel.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Rule 3 Definitions

(f) The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through
some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these
Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Would the exemplary instance of the row boat qualify as "a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by the Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel?

When is the circumstance exceptional enough to be eNUC?

Sorry I missed your post.

A row boat in good working order is designed to be rowed, so no it is not considered a NUC vessel.

In order to be considered NUC something must have happened, an exceptional circumstance, that has made the vessel unable to maneuver.

Exceptional circumstance is normally considered something is broken or disabled.
Like the engine, steering, mast, etc.
It could also mean problems with the crew and Captain.

[Montanan]

It is unclear but the video of sailing yacht on an apparent port tack running over a small fishing boat in Australia. Seems like an instance of failure to keep watch when overtaking.

Seen that occur more than once when one can't see through a genoa and thus has a significant blind spot. One can not assume that there is nothing in your way beyond the foresail.

Inconvenience to the two fisherperson's. It is unclear as to whether they were anchored or crossing, but clearly did not or were not capable of getting out of way when being overtaken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWFoqeGVRDg

[Surrymark]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Please lets keep this thread friendly and no insulting.


6 guys out fishing with poles off the back of a charter fishing boat is just a power boat.

So unless you are in a commercial fishing boat and engaged in fishing you are just a power boat, the Sailboat is the stand on vessel and you are the give way vessel.

Capt Graham must have common sense, or a full-keel boat with attached rudder, or a lot of monofilament hanging on his dagger rudder and exposed prop, or six angry guys fast overtaking.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

It is unclear but the video of sailing yacht on an apparent port tack running over a small fishing boat in Australia. Seems like an instance of failure to keep watch when overtaking.

Seen that occur more than once when one can't see through a genoa and thus has a significant blind spot. One can not assume that there is nothing in your way beyond the foresail.

Inconvenience to the two fisherperson's. It is unclear as to whether they were anchored or crossing, but clearly did not or were not capable of getting out of way when being overtaken.

100% yachts fault.. in my opinion the tinnie was most likely drift fishing with the engine off.. a common practice..
Bad watchkeeping pure and simple.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Sorry I missed your post.

A row boat in good working order is designed to be rowed, so no it is not considered a NUC vessel.

In order to be considered NUC something must have happened, an exceptional circumstance, that has made the vessel unable to maneuver.

Exceptional circumstance is normally considered something is broken or disabled.
Like the engine, steering, mast, etc.
It could also mean problems with the crew and Captain.

Thank you Captain.

A frequent occurrence seems to be the instance when a power boat's motor fails to start up promptly so the vessel is NUC. It can be hard to determine if the vessel is having difficulties or just being inattentive. When the vessel relies on a small outboard motors with pull starters, it is easier to determine from a reasonable distance that they are having motor troubles because one can see the operator repeatedly pulling the starter cord to no avail. They are at least making an effort to avoid oncoming traffic. I have seen instances whereby fisherpersons are running small trolling motors, even electric trolling motors, say on bass boats but whose main motors will not turn over when needed to allow them to maneuver out of harm's way in a timely fashion. Other than frantically waving or blasting a small handheld horn or whistling there isn't much they can do in such instances. And there are many times whereby they are at anchor, either ground tackle deployed or using drift anchors and thus can't get underway in a timely fashion. I treat all fisherpersons as being dead in the water until I can ascertain they are capable of movement and I adjust course to give way a safe distance from them both as a safety consideration and as a fair sportsperson. Albeit they sure can make things difficult when they are in a narrow channel. It really fries me when they are fishing in a hard to navigate marina or a mooring field which of course are often attractive locations for fish.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Thank you Captain.

A frequent occurrence seems to be the instance when a power boat's motor fails to start up promptly so the vessel is NUC. It can be hard to determine if the vessel is having difficulties or just being inattentive. When the vessel relies on a small outboard motors with pull starters, it is easier to determine from a reasonable distance that they are having motor troubles because one can see the operator repeatedly pulling the starter cord to no avail. They are at least making an effort to avoid oncoming traffic. I have seen instances whereby fisherpersons are running small trolling motors, even electric trolling motors, say on bass boats but whose main motors will not turn over when needed to allow them to maneuver out of harm's way in a timely fashion. Other than frantically waving or blasting a small handheld horn or whistling there isn't much they can do in such instances. And there are many times whereby they are at anchor, either ground tackle deployed or using drift anchors and thus can't get underway in a timely fashion. I treat all fisherpersons as being dead in the water until I can ascertain they are capable of movement and I adjust course to give way a safe distance from them both as a safety consideration and as a fair sportsperson. Albeit they sure can make things difficult when they are in a narrow channel. It really fries me when they are fishing in a hard to navigate marina or a mooring field which of course are often attractive locations for fish.

That's all very reasonable, but just note that not much of it has much to do with the COLREGS. NUC status does not exist according to the Rules without appropriate signals. But you are obligated to be paying attention according to Rule ___, and if you have reason to believe that the motor vessel will not be able to maneuver because, for example, the engine is not running, then you apply Rule 17 a(ii) and Rule 17 b, and maneuver yourself. Never stand on into danger.



As to "treating all fisherpersons as dead in the water" until proven otherwise -- that's exactly what I do . You need to be prepared to stand on as required if you get to the stage of a risk of collision existing, and the fishing vessel is not technically fishing (including appropriate signals), and seems like it might be inclined to maneuver, but in most cases they are oblivious, and so you just apply 17 a (ii) and deal with it yourself, once you perceive that the fisherman is unlikely to maneuver.



It only takes one vessel following the Rules and applying good seamanship, to prevent a collision. Fishermen are just no big deal as long as you understand their behavior, and take action appropriately early.

[Captain Graham]

One very important point that many have already said in difference ways is

Just because you are the stand-on vessel does not give you the right to run over the give way vessel.

If someone is yelling "get out of my way" they are not following the rules.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Thanks for your response.
If you look at just Rule 18 (Responsibilities Between Vessels) yes NUC is at the top.
If you include Rule 13 (Overtaking) where it makes it clear that the vessel being overtaken by any vessel is the stand on vessel.
So Overtaken is at the top.

I would agree with you that it does not make sense but it is the rule.

You are correct about the sport fishermen.

We were nearly run over yesterday by a ski boat at a Club Med resort in Saint Anne Martinique. Rules are different here. (None) Only a driver, no observer. We were in our dinghy passing the ski dock. We had been on this course parallel to shore for several miles. The tow boat approached from behind and I would not have seen or heard him if my wife hadn’t looked back. I came off plane and stopped. He cut between my bow and the dock with the skier. He never made any deviation in his intended path. Flipped us off. Filled the dink with water. I am convinced he would gladly have hit us.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

100% yachts fault.. in my opinion the tinnie was most likely drift fishing with the engine off.. a common practice..
Bad watchkeeping pure and simple.

That be my take. "Fuzzy logic" was even fuzzier steering. Running over a tinny with a sailing yacht, now that has to be embarrassing. Well at least the yachties did pick up the soaked mates on their sugar scoop. Pretty good job of MOB recovery. Yet another good lesson as to always wear a PFD, ya never know when you will be in immediate need for one.

I'd guess the yacht likely fixated on reaching towards the yellow buoy. Yellow buoys indicate an isolated underwater danger and mean to stay away from them when navigating. An isolated underwater danger is often a good fishing spot. Sailors often set their course towards buoy markers. It's like they are turning markers which they are drawn to like opposite polarity magnets. Navigating directly towards and in close proximity of a yellow marker is just stupidity, it's placed there to navigate away from.

For just such lack of situational awareness impairing reason, I dislike foresails whose foot come down to the deck so as to totally inhibit a portion of forward downwind vision; when I am skippering such a vessel and I can't frequently shift myself to see within the blind spot I alternatively will frequently tack moderately and briefly into or off the wind so as to make visible the previously unforeseen course and then return to the desired course after discerning it remains clear of vessels or objects. Yes, such practice does make for a wigglish wake [drunken sailor like] and slows the forward progress a tad as one departs from optimized sail trim for the brief period, but heck I am sailing and when I am sailing, VMG becomes of least concern to me. I often don't stay fixedly for long durations on a stand on course for exactly the reason that I need to alter course a bit to be able to see within the blind spot ahead of the low footed foresail, instead I maintain a "reasonably" stand on course with modest deviations and try to thereby be predictable as to my general course and speed. Overtaking boats can see a pattern of my modest vision enhancing course shifts and obviously I give away more from the side they intend to pass until they are clear. I will bear off of crossing or on commoning vessels far enough so as to allow for continuing my close quarter view enhancing deviations and quickly resume the primary course.

I've seen sailboats bashing into each other because neither vessel was keeping view of what was behind their masking foresails. There being many a Youtube video of such instances particularly in racing events. I get that during yacht racing there is often a lot of close proximity navigating and strategic maneuvering but it always amazes me when a collision occurs without anyone on either boat recognizing such is about to happen and not speaking up ahead of time to allow for evasion. Yes, the skipper is supposed to be in charge, but that doesn't mean a crew member / guest is to remain mute and unresponsive and acting like a piece of driftwood or rail meat and not being the second set of eyes and mind.

In my experience, the blind spot behind a foresail is exactly where the logs can be found, or the approaching boat. And be sure they are what you will most like hit. I perceive such low footed head sails as being like the ever larger widths of the A pillars of a car [large roof supports are much sturdier than they used to be and will save your life in a rollover]. My newest Chevy Suburban is causing some getting used to as all the pillars [A, B & C] are much larger in width than my previous Suburban or my crew cab pick up truck and derive very large blind spots. View of an oncoming vehicle gets lost behind such pillars and can lead to some close calls, I find myself shifting my head forward and backward a lot more to be sure that there isn't a car coming directly in line behind such roof supports, and I am anticipating that others are likewise inhibited in their viewing by their much larger piillarage so I am being more cautious as to other's actions. If I'm having more difficulty so are others.

[Bill_Giles]

I teach navigation in the UK and my first discussion on collision avoidance is always to ask 'what is the best device for avoiding collisions?', we go through stuff like handbearing compasses, radar, AIS etc and only then does the light dawn on understanding the value of the Mk 1 eyeball.

My favourite for Rule of Road discussions is about windsurfers. I claim that there are three sorts of windsurfers:
1. Those that don't know the rules and cannot do anything about it anyway.
2. Those who know the rules but still cannot do anything about it.
3. Those who know the rules and could do something about it but choose not to.

Also, never expect a windsurfer to give way, always expect a windsurfer to fall off in front of you and always expect that a windsurfer will need to be rescued. Thus you will never be disappointed.

[Jim Cate]

Yellow buoys indicate an isolated underwater danger and mean to stay away from them when navigating.

Montanan, perhaps you should review your navigation markers! An isolated hazard mark is not yellow, but black over red bands with two black balls as a topmark. This is an international convention.

Yellow buoys, often with a "X" as topmark, are special purpose buoys,marking various things, such as places where two channels veer off from a single one.

Yacht racing courses are often marked with inflatable buoys, and they too are often yellow... and for sure those are not marking hazards (other than congestion of racing yachts!). No wonder some yachts steer towards them!

Jim

[Bill_Giles]

Yellow buoys do not mark where a channel splits, there is a special buoy or mark with green and red stripes. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqw8s6ZrDu8