Marinas Bite the Big One

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Fuel costs alone have risen more than 50% since last January.

That's somewhat of an anomaly. Compared to 2 - 2.5 years ago, fuel prices in my area are only up a little bit. 2020 and early 2021 were an anomaly in terms of fuel prices compared to other recent years. We pretty much had a perfect storm of multiple fuel cheapening events that hit all at once.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

Those prices are bargains. Rent in FL is 2-3X of that and with a waiting list in many places.

Obviously as an astute person you should have known this was going to happen and bought several slips right? This has been coming for almost 40 years. The US has become an asset based economy. It is no longer a producer. Our Tax system is setup to promote asset ownership and penalize working and creating. Sad but true.

NC is not Florida. Where you have a huge amount of wealth from the NE invested in 2nd homes, boats, real estate. Their Tax System is set up for this as well.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You can always sell your boat and take up a different hobby.

What you are forgetting is that with the current administration's policies of reducing energy independence, raising the minimum wage for unskilled labor and giving away taxpayers money to those who choose not to work, the cost of everything is going up at an alarming rate. Fuel costs alone have risen more than 50% since last January. Fuel is somehow involved in nearly every product or service we use.

You (and the rest of us) will have to forget what we think a dollar is worth and get used to that dollar and all the other dollars buying us less and less as long as these policies are in effect.

This is reality, plain and simple.

I would have never thought eviction from a marina could be turned political, but somehow you managed. This so called reality of yours is simply yours and that is plain and simple.
...and in case you didn't know...oil prices are controlled by OPEC and not any one nation.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Look at state and national parks. They are maintained for the public (not a bad thing) but when it comes to their finances, they are a mess. Maintenance is often not done, facilities are often substandard, etc....

The ones that are best maintained actually incorporate a capitalist component, typically by having private vendors come in and operate but then you are back to a situation where the fees have to result in covering expenses plus a reasonable profit.

Basically what was suggested by those proffering that marinas should be socialist institutions, is a similar situation and it comes with similar pitfalls. But feel free to pretend it won't.

This is of course not true, and worse - half truths one after the other.

National and state parks throughout the country are generally well managed and open to all - as these are public properties owned by the people FOR the people. Yes, they may be modest in amenities, but we don’t need Disneylands operated by the usual greedy sharks to sell us in inflated rates what we already own.

The water/coastline is also a 100% public property where the public right to fully and freely enjoy the waterfront goes back to the Roman law and has been mostly adopted by the US states and the western democracies (guess you don’t like these too much…)

States and municipalities can definitely play a role in making boating and water sports more accessible by extending zoning and permissions to use the waterfront by opening more coastline sites to clubs, marinas and effect the supply side as well as the reasonable pricing and conditions, so lease holders can’t abuse the public lands for their own benefits alone.

But for that we need state politicians that first of all see the public interest and the people who voted for them and not their usual fat-cat ‘donors’ (or let’s be accurate: investors or bribers…)

[Hoodsail]

My curiosity about what's happening in local marinas led me to contact safe harbor. I cant speak to the state of marinas that they buy or amenities offered, but I thought the slip rates in CT were eye-opening: Essex Island ($188/ft) - floating dock slip; Deep River - 36' floating dock slip (5/1-10/31/2022) = $4428; Pilots Point - 36' floating dock slip (5/1-10/31/2022) = $5400. A wait list at Essex with slips available at Deep River & Pilots Point. These rates are based on my monohull beam of 10'10" so uncertain about catamaran rates. As their website states, they've taken "...boating to a new level."

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

My curiosity about what's happening in local marinas led me to contact safe harbor. I cant speak to the state of marinas that they buy or amenities offered, but I thought the slip rates in CT were eye-opening: Essex Island ($188/ft) - floating dock slip; Deep River - 36' floating dock slip (5/1-10/31/2022) = $4428; Pilots Point - 36' floating dock slip (5/1-10/31/2022) = $5400. A wait list at Essex with slips available at Deep River & Pilots Point. These rates are based on my monohull beam of 10'10" so uncertain about catamaran rates. As their website states, they've taken "...boating to a new level."

Expensive indeed. How to think about these rates re property values is complicated. $4428 for a slip for six months is $738 a month. Or is it? Since that floating dock sits unused the other six months of the year (I assume) then it is actually only $369 a month income. And we tend to think of 'a slip' as a 36 by 10 foot patch. But really, isn't one 'renting' a share of all the common space at the marina as well? The long dock you walk out on to get to your slip? A parking spot for your car? Bathrooms and showers?
In my neighborhood, 'tear downs'* sell for about $750,000. These homes are usually on about a 60' by 150' lot. Theoretically, that is 25 slips (ignoring my point about about including shared space in what you are renting) - but it sure as heck ain't waterfront, which has always been more expensive.
And that is just the property value/cost. That ignores everything else, such as property taxes, electricity for overhead lighting, someone to answer the phone, liability insurance...
So, while $4428 is clearly a lot of money, it seems to me to be primarily a general reflection of the overall rise in property values, which has clearly been faster than inflation or income. An issue much bigger than sailing.
I say all this not to contradict the assertions of corporate greed, but instead to suggest that, that aside, there are some fundamentals of cost rises that we are facing here.

*Small, usually 50+ year homes

[Hoodsail]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Expensive indeed. How to think about these rates re property values is complicated. $4428 for a slip for six months is $738 a month. Or is it? Since that floating dock sits unused the other six months of the year (I assume) then it is actually only $369 a month income. And we tend to think of 'a slip' as a 36 by 10 foot patch. But really, isn't one 'renting' a share of all the common space at the marina as well? The long dock you walk out on to get to your slip? A parking spot for your car? Bathrooms and showers?
In my neighborhood, 'tear downs'* sell for about $750,000. These homes are usually on about a 60' by 150' lot. Theoretically, that is 25 slips (ignoring my point about about including shared space in what you are renting) - but it sure as heck ain't waterfront, which has always been more expensive.
And that is just the property value/cost. That ignores everything else, such as property taxes, electricity for overhead lighting, someone to answer the phone, liability insurance...
So, while $4428 is clearly a lot of money, it seems to me to be primarily a general reflection of the overall rise in property values, which has clearly been faster than inflation or income. An issue much bigger than sailing.
I say all this not to contradict the assertions of corporate greed, but instead to suggest that, that aside, there are some fundamentals of cost rises that we are facing here.

*Small, usually 50+ year homes

Good point and no question the cost of water front property is always at a premium as very little is being created, except in Dubai...Not certain if the SH marinas own boatyards also, so that unused marina parking lot might be filled w/ boats for winter storage generating additional revenue to offset annual costs. I dont begrudge the SH owners, after all we live in an economy where market demand can drive price. What would be interesting is to look at the past couple of yrs and compare them to the next few yrs and see if slip costs go up consistent with inflation or more/less at SH marinas versus others.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Good point and no question the cost of water front property is always at a premium as very little is being created, except in Dubai...Not certain if the SH marinas own boatyards also, so that unused marina parking lot might be filled w/ boats for winter storage generating additional revenue to offset annual costs. I dont begrudge the SH owners, after all we live in an economy where market demand can drive price. What would be interesting is to look at the past couple of yrs and compare them to the next few yrs and see if slip costs go up consistent with inflation or more/less at SH marinas versus others.

Sorry to be dense - but what is 'SH'?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Sorry to be dense - but what is 'SH'?

Safe Harbor. One of the worst

[capn_billl]

Take an EPA director that hates private boats, and incredible increase in demand from retiring Boomers, and you have the perfect storm.

A limited supply commodity on a good day artificially restricted even further by government, with millions of freshly retired who spent decades working, and saving to spend their sunset years on the water.

Condos are exploding in popularity because these retirees have half a million or more in their 401k, and a condo by the water is a nice retirement.

Other than pressuring the State of Florida to ease up on limiting new marina development, and maybe condo developers to leave the docks, I don't see the situation improving any time soon.

[Bycrick]

Ah, a accusation that is "probably baseless." Is it or isn’t it? Or is "baseless" just another adjective like "toxic" that gets thrown around whenever someone says something one doesn’t agree with.

It’s interesting that the cost of slips is going up everywhere. It doesn’t seem to be closely correlated to a capitalist system or a socialist one. Or a private marina or a public one. So if one can’t afford to keep the boat, there’s little evidence that changing the system will improve anything. P

Shoreside land is always more expensive because there’s less of it. The prices quoted by Hoodsails are actually about 25% less per month than marinas close to me. So they don’t sound very expensive.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

(irrelevant stuff deleted)
It’s interesting that the cost of slips is going up everywhere. It doesn’t seem to be closely correlated to a capitalist system or a socialist one. Or a private marina or a public one. So if one can’t afford to keep the boat, there’s little evidence that changing the system will improve anything.

Shoreside land is always more expensive because there’s less of it. The prices quoted by Hoodsails are actually about 25% less per month than marinas close to me. So they don’t sound very expensive.

On these points - we can agree! Well said.

[Hoodsail]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

Ah, a accusation that is "probably baseless." Is it or isn’t it? Or is "baseless" just another adjective like "toxic" that gets thrown around whenever someone says something one doesn’t agree with.

It’s interesting that the cost of slips is going up everywhere. It doesn’t seem to be closely correlated to a capitalist system or a socialist one. Or a private marina or a public one. So if one can’t afford to keep the boat, there’s little evidence that changing the system will improve anything. P

Shoreside land is always more expensive because there’s less of it. The prices quoted by Hoodsails are actually about 25% less per month than marinas close to me. So they don’t sound very expensive.

Bycrick, if your marinas are 25% above what I noted earlier, curious where you are located? I can see an increase in more temperate climes, allowing for a 10-12 month season versus our 7, but otherwise what's driving the cost? California doesnt count because everything there is more $$. that's one reason we moved 22 yrs ago..thnks

[Allied39]

Originally Posted by lestersails

This is not a political forum. It is a cruising forum. There are a few people who insist on making everything into political arguments.
And you as well - 'higher minimum wages over a 20 year period' and 'unimaginable inflation'. What kind of looney toons is that? The minimum wage over the last 20 years has not increased at all, adjusted for inflation. Inflation over the last 20 years has been very low.
These are right wing political rants that you may think we are too stupid to recognize as such. I don't think we should be arguing this garbage in this forum. But you and your ilk insist on making political pot shots. I can respond in kind, but I think we would all be better off not doing this at all. Let's keep the focus on slip prices and leave the polemics out of it.

I wasnt talking about the US. I have seen a place where minimum wage is now over $20 an hour. Thats happened over a 20 year period, and un imaginable inflation came with, not just because of it, but in part because of it and the thought process that made it happen.

But this IS off topic and therefore dropped.

As some have pointed out, inflation and political policy can very easily be connected, almost idiotic to think it can be separated.
Yes land is becoming more expensive and waterfront even more so, that will happen no matter what the politics. But the rate at which that happens can most definitely be reasonably connected.
Me and my ilk might be open to that thought process, open to a thought process that might dispel the likely hood that the effect is big.....or not.

You and your ilk just like to control what others may say, or not say.

I figure in the next ten years slips/moorings are going to become way more expensive. Obviously going to happen. Regardless of what happens politically or which self centered (insert words here that would get me censured by the moderators) politicians are in charge.

I am looking about 10 years ahead and trying to plan for that now, always seems to me the folks that don't do that are the ones that bitch the most when the obvious occurs.

[Bycrick]

Well, let’s see. Union labor wants 10%+/year wage increases. Government want 5-10%/year increase in water rent. Trash has to be considered MARPOL trash; $250/truck load as opposed to $300/month for city trash. Have to train all employees for fire-fighting, first aid, launch drivers license, certify the welders. That’s every year. Those are just some of the on-going costs that I can think of off the top of my head. Doesn’t include maintaining moorings at $500+/year. Insurance went up 25%.

Cost per foot for transients about $0.70/ft/day, so $840/month for 40’ boat. Two large, centrally-located marinas want something like $2/ft/day for transients. Long-term is 5 years up front at about $50k.

A new marina, located well out of the city, has comparable prices I’m told. I haven’t verified them.

It isn’t cheap or easy to run a marina at all, much less make money at it. Hence the growing tendency to make money from condominiums, golf courses, boat yards/services/supplies. That’s why full-service marinas get rid of people who don’t use their services. A bar/restaurant makes about 3 times the margin on drinks as opposed to food. That’s why you can’t bring your own booze in.

Do I like this? Not really. But I don’t see it changing. And having the marina run by the government doesn’t reduce the costs. All that does is move the costs off to somebody else, and I can’t see any justification for the general public supporting my boat, or my plane or my polo pony.

Lestersails is correct that I’m not a fan of socialism. That shouldn’t imply that I’m a fan of pure untrammeled capitalism either. But I do get tired of people thinking that if they can’t afford something, then it’s society's obligation to do it for them.