Microplastics in the sea

[Exile]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

"There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem"

The rallying cry of absolutism, tyranny & repression throughout human history.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by Exile

The rallying cry of absolutism, tyranny & repression throughout human history.

Please elaborate as it pertains to the problem (perceived or otherwise) of microplastics.

I am genuinely interested.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Or they're being taught the wrong lessons. For example, that "identifying" as an environmentalist takes priority over personal responsibility for one's own environment. Or that making pronouncements on internet forums counts as "doing something." Or that the "important" act of demonizing polluting industries makes throwing trash on the ground seem inconsequential in comparison, and therefore excusable.

Imho, what has turned many people away from a previous generation's bipartisan consensus on environmentalism has less to do with the issues themselves and more to do with the manner in which they are being advocated. It certainly doesn't help that "environmentalism" is now so closely associated with the Left, but many find repugnant that it has so fallen under the strict censorship of political correctness that alternative views are no longer tolerated. The climate change issue is worst of all, and it's poisoned healthy debate and compromise on issues such as microplastics which should be much easier to rally around and solve. Little of this has to do with the merits of any of these issues, including CC, but it has everything to do with the credibility of the proponents. Real or perceived.

Utter and pretty much irrelevant bullsh!t that didn't play in the CC threads and is no better here.

So it's hardly superior to the posts you're criticizing.

Yeah, stuff is pretty polarized in the world today. There's no room for empathy, dialogue or compromise. You already know what side brought us to this point.

Originally Posted by Exile

The rallying cry of absolutism, tyranny & repression throughout human history.

And also of those revolting against absolutism, tyranny and repression.

[StuM]

Exile and Lake Effect. Please don't start bombing this thread as well with you tit for tat postings!

[john61ct]

Our wanton destruction of our mother Earth's ecosystems,

over which we are supposed to be stewards and caretakers,

for the sake of a handful of silver

now threatens the survival of our species.

We have become the pathogens, and her immune systems are working to attack us to defend the rest of her body.

Incremental half-measures will not do, a radical revolution is required, too late to "solve" the problem but just to ameliorate the worst impacts.

Those who think we can just go on, with our current political/economic systems intact, will be swept away, sooner rather than later, condemned by their own blind and greedy arrogance.

[GordMay]

Actually: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. And remember, chemists know all the solutions.

[Exile]

the-tiny-nation-waging-war-on-plastic

No plastics industry and their lobbying groups to overcome here, but then no sweeping away of economic & political systems either. If nothing else, then perhaps an example of consensus vs. divisive politics. Btw, I didn't know the EU had taken action that becomes effective in 2020.

"Over the years, the tropical island nation of Vanuatu has struggled with its attempts to eliminate single-use plastics, but thanks to an extensive campaign, the country is about to implement one of the toughest plastic bans in the world.

Last year it banned drinking straws, plastic bags and styrofoam, but by December 2019 it will have added all single-use plastics to the list (ahead of the EU next year)."

Also noteworthy is what appears to be a boon to the local economy bringing back the traditional production of home grown baskets, etc. This is perhaps analogous to some of the technologies being developed as potentially viable substitutes on a mass scale for the industrialized world.

Unlike some other environmental issues where remedies are more elusive, this one appears solvable. There will be resistance by industry without a doubt, but imo consensus will be far easier achieved by not giving industry lobbyists a helping hand by turning the issue into a slugfest of anger, intolerance & blame. As the woman in the video said, "people just got used to the convenience of using plastic." No moralizing, no judgment, just an acknowledgment about the nature of human beings. Imo, tackling the plastics issue responsibly could give greater credibility to issues surrounding climate change along with its proponents, and not the other way around.

No pronouncements or absolutism intended here, only an opinion perhaps worthy of some thought.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

Imho, what has turned many people away from a previous generation's bipartisan consensus on environmentalism has less to do with the issues themselves and more to do with the manner in which they are being advocated. It certainly doesn't help that "environmentalism" is now so closely associated with the Left, but many find repugnant that it has so fallen under the strict censorship of political correctness that alternative views are no longer tolerated. The climate change issue is worst of all, and it's poisoned healthy debate and compromise on issues such as microplastics which should be much easier to rally around and solve. Little of this has to do with the merits of any of these issues, including CC, but it has everything to do with the credibility of the proponents. Real or perceived.

Let's be realistic - who poisoned it? The advocates for environment, or the advocates of disregard for the environment? IMO, this is exactly like saying Barack Obama increased racial tensions in the US. He was black, and every other president for 225 years has been white. Racial tensions may have increased with a black president, but the black person did not cause it.

I really don't think "what has turned many people away from a previous generation's bipartisan consensus on environmentalism has less to do with the issues themselves and more to do with the manner in which they are being advocated." - I'd respectfully submit what has turned people away from a previous generation's bipartisan consensus has solely been the vicious right wing political opposition to any environmental protection issue - and incarnated in 20 some years of political attacks from the right wing side of the spectrum.

Where were the present day type of right wing attacks against the Clean Water Act - back in the Nixon era? Oh - that's right - the right wing as a whole was a little different back then.

The right wing has backed themselves so far into an ideological corner, over the past 20 years, that any action involving environmental protection is a complete non-starter. It would be a hypocritical act, and in direct contradiction to all the "arguments" they have made for the public record - since the Nixon era.

As has been suggested in previous commentary - I'm wisely for making big business part of the solution. I'll happily let them lead. Let's go, right now - what are they proposing? Let's actually talk about that instead.

In the meantime, I'm all for making internet proclamations - so long as they are accurate. The one, and ONLY, way to get real action in protecting the human habitat, is for the actual biological humans living in it - to raise awareness of the issue, and force action through the imminence of public interest.

I concede, in reality, it's really the environmental concerns that have caused this whole state of affairs. If they had just asked more nicely, industry would have been far more eager and willing to do what needs to be done. I accept the fact that the environmental problems are really, actually, caused by the "environmentalists."

What should they have done differently? Let's start over - and perhaps someone can explain how the environmental concerns should have been presented all these years? Seriously.

Let's also examine what "big business" or industry has done to address (any) environmental issues on their own in all these years. I can't think of anything. Not one thing.

[Hardhead]

And another thing... (in the spirit of Seinfeld’s Frank Costanza – someone I have always admired) every person under 30 that I know, essentially believes the earth's habitat is being destroyed, and current government is doing nothing at all - except ridiculing the concerns.

The counter-arguments they hear, are either, people with environmental concerns are essentially completely wrong & stupid - or any action to protect the environment would make our country socialist. Those arguments may be effective with 1/3 of current voters. They are much less effective with younger generations.

If we really want to see the US actually become "socialist" - just keep doing what we are doing (nothing), and see what happens in 20 years. Environmental concerns are being clearly branded as socialist - and our country is shooting ourselves in the foot. If the real problem solving strengths of capitalism are not used and discussed - capitalism sounds like an environment destroyer, and socialism an environmental protector, and protector of the worst abuses of capitalism.

Actual “socialism” will only increase in popularity, as a solution to environmental problems, and the growing problems of the top 2% calling all the shots and self-dealing. Every year, hundreds of thousands of older voters die, and hundreds of thousands of new, environmentally concerned, voters turn 18. Do you see where this is going?

[Dave22q]

Liberal garbage! Any rational investigation will trace the bulk of the plastics and CO2 environmental issues to Asia, particularly India and China. Elimination of the US contribution would not impact the trend. The only thing that might work would be use the leverage of access to the US market to force the main contributors into compliance. It might not work and I doubt it will ever be attempted because to go along America Liberals would have to give up their self-hatred.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Liberal garbage! Any rational investigation will trace the bulk of the plastics and CO2 environmental issues to Asia, particularly India and China. Elimination of the US contribution would not impact the trend. The only thing that might work would be use the leverage of access to the US market to force the main contributors into compliance. It might not work and I doubt it will ever be attempted because to go along America Liberals would have to give up their self-hatred.

Not these - https://qz.com/1689529/nurdles-are-t...-heard-of/amp/

[TigerPaws]

Being a good steward to the planet is a worthy endeavor and should not be taken lightly. That said there are far bigger issues at play.

Let me say for the sake of argument that technologies exist that could produce unlimited clean and free energy. Imagine for a moment a 1 cubic foot clear box that could supply all of the energy needs for a medium sized city for thousands of years without any pollution. Furthermore imagine that power supply is scalable in size to fit in your car, home, business or wherever.

Sounds great. But what would happen to the fossil fuel industry? What about the tens of millions of people who would lose their livelihood? What about the companies worldwide that would go bankrupt almost overnight and all of the people who rely on them for jobs, medical insurance, retirement and the suppliers to those companies as well as their suppliers and those who service them? What about the global economy and those countries (including the U.S.A.) which depend of fossil fuels for their economies?

The numbers are staggering, maybe 100 million or more world wide would loose their jobs and then there is the threat war because countries will not fall easily. Then there is the corruption of such a technology, the country, group or company which controls the technology would be the defacto masters of the world.

The pollution problem is global and would require a global solution but please let us be honest that is not going to happen in any of our lifetimes, not until mankind grows up and matures.

SeaQuest OE II

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

Let's be realistic - who poisoned it? The advocates for environment, or the advocates of disregard for the environment?

* * *

I don't know the answer, but I can say the manner in which you've framed the question suggests your own answer is heavily biased. Most mainstream people prioritize issues in pragmatic fashion, and there are practical reasons why environmentalism has lost credibility with the mainstream and not just the hard right. Sure, lobbying & media efforts play a role, but there's been a wholesale shift in attitudes towards environmental causes, and I don't think it can be blamed so casually & simplistically on only one side.

But why are we getting into discussions about blameworthiness in any event, if the goal is to raise awareness and potential large scale action about solving issues surrounding microplastics? Far-right and far-left rhetoric can only be unproductive because it reduces the possibility of creating a needed consensus. Solving this problem requires a combination of addressing production, consumer demand, and disposal, so inserting political rhetoric while ignoring that the bulk of plastics entering the seas are from only a couple of Asian countries hardly seems constructive. Less emphasis on blaming whoever's responsible and more on finding realistic solutions are the only constructive ways of moving the issue forward, assuming that the microplastics issue is what this thread is really about.

[TigerPaws]

Microplastics? A couple of weeks ago no one ever heard about the issue. What about Fukashima poisoning the Pacific? What about the Deepwater Horizon (BP) oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? Which by-the-way is still leaking on the sea floor.

Please I am not saying that microplastics or plastic in general is not an issue but then again so are the untold millions of waste tires on the sea floor. Millions of tons of low level radioactive waste is dumped into the sea, yet you hear nothing about it?

With all due respect to those who honestly care until all of mankind cares nothing will happen and when the next world war breaks out and it will sooner or later all of this will be forgotten anyway.

So what is the point.

SeaQuest OE II

[john61ct]

Humanity becoming caretakers and stewards of the Earth requires exactly the same steps as the causes of peace, and ending colonialist oppression and exploitation.

None of which are "reasonable" nor "pragmatic", and of course are not going to involve the cooperation of those currently benefitting from the root causes of our path hellbent toward self-destruction.

These concepts of staying reasonable, "being civil", "building consensus" etc are just delaying tactics, trying to postpone the drastic revolutions required for our species to ensure our survival.

Microplastics are indeed the least of it, just another canary in the coal mine.

Species extinction, both plants and animals, at 1,000 times higher than the natural extinction rate is of greater concern. That is a very conservative estimate, 10,000 more likely.