Microplastics in the sea

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

To be clear I am 100% on-board with man made pollution clean-up and control we are destroying our home and that mankind can change.

As for man made climate change, that is little more than Al I invented the internet Gore's hockey stick predictions reinvented to mean anything.

There is this big yellow ball of light and heat that governs our little blue ball as well as our axis tilt which by-the-way was altered 1 degree by the Fukashima magnitude 9 earthquake. Add to that the fact that our magnetic pole is moving at a rate of 55 klicks a year and that the sun is entering a 1,000 year solar minimum.

Science has no idea what is happening to our climate, to confine global changes to man is foolish at and best arrogant at worst.

SaeQuest OE II

I may be foolish and arrogant but in my lifetime I have seen the deforestation of the Hindu Kush..
Where once there were trees from a few miles out of Rawalpindi all the way to Muree, today there are just stumps and rocks exposed by erosion.
Large areas in Malaysia deforested for plam oil production..
Anything that decreases this wanton destruction is just fine in my book.
Reefs I swam along in Antigua and other places in the 60's.. Gone.
I dont care what its called as long as its stopped and hopefully reversed.
Not that it'll affect me, I'll likely be dead and gone in the next decade.

[TigerPaws]

Luckyknot/Hardhead,

The issue is not the "isam" (Communism, Capitalism, Socialism or Totalitarianism) this issue is people. If we are honest with ourselves about mankind "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMMNvYTEyI

I am sorry to say this is the vast majority of people in the world. Spend time traveling through most of the sand box, Africa, most of Asia, Central America and South America. You will find unbelievable poverty, massive government corruption, uneducated masses of simple peasants, disease, starvation and death. This is the planet we live on.

The do-gooders all believe they are doing "something", that something is better than nothing. When in reality they are accomplishing little more than making themselves feel good. But you think "I made a difference!", keep on deluding yourself.
As Stalin once said "When one man dies it's a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic".

Pollution control and reduction is a worthy goal but one needs to temper their goals with what is realistically achievable.

SeaQuest OE II

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I may be foolish and arrogant but in my lifetime I have seen the deforestation of the Hindu Kush..
Where once there were trees from a few miles out of Rawalpindi all the way to Muree, today there are just stumps and rocks exposed by erosion.
Large areas in Malaysia deforested for plam oil production..
Anything that decreases this wanton destruction is just fine in my book.
Reefs I swam along in Antigua and other places in the 60's.. Gone.
I dont care what its called as long as its stopped and hopefully reversed.
Not that it'll affect me, I'll likely be dead and gone in the next decade.

Climate change hoax collapses as Michael Mann’s bogus “hockey stick” graph defamation lawsuit dismissed by the Supreme Court of British Columbia
For the past two decades, much of the hysteria about global warming — later re-labeled “climate change” — has been based on the so-called “hockey stick” graph produced by Michael Mann. The graph, shown below, has been used by the IPCC, the media and governments to push global warming hysteria to the point of mass mental illness, where Democrat presidential candidates claim humanity only has 12 years remaining before a climate apocalypse will somehow destroy the planet.

But the hockey stick graph is a fraud. A man-made computer software algorithm generated it, and the algorithm is rigged to produce a hockey stick shape no matter what data were entered. Like everything else found in the rigged world of “climate science,” the hockey stick graph was a fraud the day it was generated.

https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-08-...ick-graph.html

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

Spend time traveling through most of the sand box, Africa, most of Asia, Central America and South America. You will find unbelievable poverty, massive government corruption, uneducated masses of simple peasants, disease, starvation and death. This is the planet we live on.

I'd say it's actually just (2) - the governmental corruption, and the uneducated masses, that cause ALL of the world intractable problems.

The problem of microplastic contamination is, in reality, easily solved. It's caused largely by non-biodegradable, single-use, plastic packaging. That particular problem is just the kind of problem that real capitalism is meant to solve. In fact, it's what real capitalism excels at - better than any other economic system in the world. Finding an economic substitute to disposable single-use plastic packaging at the least cost, the greatest productivity, and with the greatest freedom.

I'd submit there is absolutely nothing wrong, (economically, morally, ethically, as a matter of freedom, as a matter of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, or as a public safety issue) with attaching specifications, i.e. biodegradability and/or inertness, to single-use packaging allowed to be sold in the US --- that is clearly proving to be an environmental disposal issue, and looming as a potential health issue. The same was done with leaded gasoline, amusement park rides, many drugs, certain Chinese products, etc.

Unless, in reality, microplastic particles flooding around within our bodies - that are, in reality, an un-natural product of ethene gas that is "molecularly “cracked”—its carbon and hydrogen atoms rearranged—to form ethylene, the main building block of plastic." - is a health food. It must be considered as a food, as every living thing in the world is now essentially being force-fed an involuntary diet of microplastic - according to new and steadily published public research.

A ban on non-biodegradable, single-use, plastic packaging that is sold in the US is completely doable, in real life, and would in fact, have an enormously positive effect on the problem. The US is the most powerful single nation on earth, and our economic markets drive the entire world market. That's true. Nothing else can be realistically done, unless the proposal is a one-world government.

Or, the proposal is nothing at all.

[jmorrison146]

[QUOTE=john61ct;2958530]

Why do you think the oil industry has such labor shortages, have to pay much higher salaries?


This might be because a lot of oil industry work is dangerous and is done in remote, inhospitable environments. Not for lightweights for sure.

[boatman61]

Okay.. lets call it 'Breathable Air Change'.
Coal and oil are carbon deposits created by trees which have lived out their life as carbon sinks over the eons.
We happily release these carbons back into the atmosphere at rates that took millions of years to store while at the same time slashing and burning the carbon sinks in the Amazon, Africa and elsewhere.
Microplastics are a by product of this abuse polluting both air and sea and even the water we drink.. its everywhere.
To be honest it surprises me that a man who allegedly lives/plays on the sea and has to work with nature cannot see that something has to give.
If El Nino which is just a current in the eastern S Pacific can influence weather systems coming out of Africa it seems logical to me that changes to the balance of gases in the atmosphere can affect traditional weather patterns enough to have detrimental effects.
But hey.. as long as we're putting dosh in our stash WGAF..
Makes this foolish arrogant pillock wonder who is truely foolish and arrogant when so many clever people cannot seem to grasp basics I understood 60yrs ago aged 11.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

For the past two decades, much of the hysteria about global warming — later re-labeled “climate change” — has been based on the so-called “hockey stick” graph produced by Michael Mann. The graph, shown below, has been used by the IPCC, the media and governments to push global warming hysteria to the point of mass mental illness, where Democrat presidential candidates claim humanity only has 12 years remaining before a climate apocalypse will somehow destroy the planet.

But the hockey stick graph is a fraud. A man-made computer software algorithm generated it, and the algorithm is rigged to produce a hockey stick shape no matter what data were entered. Like everything else found in the rigged world of “climate science,” the hockey stick graph was a fraud the day it was generated.

That's an argument being made, but let's avoid conflating climate change and microplastic particle issues in the same thread. You know what they say about guns & climate change. Makes it too confusing...

[alctel]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

For the past two decades, much of the hysteria about global warming — later re-labeled “climate change” — has been based on the so-called “hockey stick” graph produced by Michael Mann. The graph, shown below, has been used by the IPCC, the media and governments to push global warming hysteria to the point of mass mental illness, where Democrat presidential candidates claim humanity only has 12 years remaining before a climate apocalypse will somehow destroy the planet.

No it hasn't, it's been based on historical records, current satellite/probe data and basic science. I've actually never even heard of michael mann or this hockey stick graph and I wouldn't be surprised if most other people hadn't either. (edit: I looked it up and apparently this was a graph that was used in an old IPCC report 18 years ago?)

If you break it down the basic science is almost high school level stuff (and in fact we were taught the carbon cycle in high school biology).

So which of the following points do you disagree with? I've tried to break it down as simply as possible

- Carbon Dioxide/Methane (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere trap heat. This can be proven both by looking at historical records and by really simple science experiments. This has been known since the late 1800s.

- Humans have added way more carbon to the atmosphere by a combination of digging up a lot of the stored carbon and burning it (and therefore putting it back into the atmosphere) and massive deforestation. The actual amount emitted by us isn't huge in the scale of the natural carbon cycle but it tips the balance over more than the earth can absorb by natural means, leading to increased ocean acidity and greatly increased atmospheric CO2

- The increased CO2 in the atmosphere leads to an increased rise in temperature as more heat is trapped, which is the natural follow on from the previous two points

- At some point the temp will have increased so much that it will kick off a feedback loop, like the methane in the arctic being released as the permafrost melts, or all the rainforests die and release their carbon, kicking off a rise in temperatures that is both catastrophic and impossible to control. This actually may already be happening - there are huge areas of the permafrost melting already. Anyway, that leads to massive sea level rises, hundreds of millions of migrants moving north to escape unlivable conditions and most species going extinct.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

That's an argument being made, but let's not conflate climate change and microplastic issues. Makes it too confusing...

Well steps are being taken in the UK..
An increasing amount of supermarkets are switching to unpackaged vegetables instead of shrink wrapped trayed single use crap, new shops are dispensing dry goods from bulk dispensers into paper bags and 'bring your own' containers.. Its a start.
But the best way is end production now.. Bugga this 5yr phase out bullcrap, they created the problem let them carry the loss.
Got no sympathy for fat shareholders and producers crying and gnashing their teeth,
Time to pay the piper.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well steps are being taken in the UK..
An increasing amount of supermarkets are switching to unpackaged vegetables instead of shrink wrapped trayed single use crap, new shops are dispensing dry goods from bulk dispensers into paper bags and 'bring your own' containers.. Its a start.
But the best way is end production now.. Bugga this 5yr phase out bullcrap, they created the problem let them carry the loss.
Got no sympathy for fat shareholders and producers crying and gnashing their teeth,
Time to pay the piper.

Agreed. A year max! It's not we don't know how to distribute stuff without plastic, after all we were doing it for years and years before plastic!

Canada is also aiming to phase out single use plastic by early next decade.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by alctel

No it hasn't, it's been based on historical records, current satellite/probe data and basic science. I've actually never even heard of michael mann or this hockey stick graph and I wouldn't be surprised if most other people hadn't either. (edit: I looked it up and apparently this was a graph that was used in an old IPCC report 18 years ago?)

If you break it down the basic science is almost high school level stuff (and in fact we were taught the carbon cycle in high school biology).

So which of the following points do you disagree with? I've tried to break it down as simply as possible

- Carbon Dioxide/Methane (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere trap heat. This can be proven both by looking at historical records and by really simple science experiments. This has been known since the late 1800s.

- Humans have added way more carbon to the atmosphere by a combination of digging up a lot of the stored carbon and burning it (and therefore putting it back into the atmosphere) and massive deforestation. The actual amount emitted by us isn't huge in the scale of the natural carbon cycle but it tips the balance over more than the earth can absorb by natural means, leading to increased ocean acidity and greatly increased atmospheric CO2

- The increased CO2 in the atmosphere leads to an increased rise in temperature as more heat is trapped, which is the natural follow on from the previous two points

- At some point the temp will have increased so much that it will kick off a feedback loop, like the methane in the arctic being released as the permafrost melts, or all the rainforests die and release their carbon, kicking off a rise in temperatures that is both catastrophic and impossible to control. This actually may already be happening - there are huge areas of the permafrost melting already. Anyway, that leads to massive sea level rises, hundreds of millions of migrants moving north to escape unlivable conditions and most species going extinct.

That's an argument being made, but let's avoid conflating climate change and microplastic particle issues in the same thread. You know what they say about guns & climate change. Makes it too confusing...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

Climate change hoax collapses as Michael Mann’s bogus “hockey stick” graph defamation lawsuit dismissed by the Supreme Court of British Columbia
For the past two decades, much of the hysteria about global warming — later re-labeled “climate change” — has been based on the so-called “hockey stick” graph produced by Michael Mann. The graph, shown below, has been used by the IPCC, the media and governments to push global warming hysteria to the point of mass mental illness, where Democrat presidential candidates claim humanity only has 12 years remaining before a climate apocalypse will somehow destroy the planet.

But the hockey stick graph is a fraud. A man-made computer software algorithm generated it, and the algorithm is rigged to produce a hockey stick shape no matter what data were entered. Like everything else found in the rigged world of “climate science,” the hockey stick graph was a fraud the day it was generated.

https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-08-...ick-graph.html

For many reasons I have my own doubts about the validity of "climate change" as well, but can't say whether the "hockey stick" graph is fraudulent or if the entire theory is a "hoax." For starters, I'm not a climate scientist. What seems to be clear, however, is that this dismissal of Michael Mann's [U]defamation[U] lawsuit from the Canadian Supreme Court of B.C. (a lower level trial or Superior Court), in no way resolves these underlying issues. Apparently it was an oral ruling from the bench and not in writing, but as best I can gather thus far it was based on undue delay on Mann's part. There are allegations that the delay was caused by Mann's failure to produce data that supports his hockey stick graph, but that may also be unsubstantiated.

In any event, it (hopefully) won't be left up to the courts to "decide" the controversies swirling around climate science. Hopefully the scientists themselves will uncover the truth and not courts, politicians, pseudo-scientists, and internet pundits. In the meantime, there's no better way to "politicize" the very real issue of microplastics than bring another debate over climate change into the discussion. But then it should really be no surprise.

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by alctel

Agreed. A year max! It's not we don't know how to distribute stuff without plastic, after all we were doing it for years and years before plastic!

Canada is also aiming to phase out single use plastic by early next decade.

I have no issue with industry coming up with a viable and less expensive alternative. The issue is an out right ban on the current products, talk is cheap and on-line is free but actions speak louder than words. I have walked the halls of congress (U.S.A.), the Pentagon, State Department, Langley and the White House.

Try it sometime and see what you get...Little more than Sore Feet.

The halls of power are greased by MONEY and that goes for any government, that is the reality of the world. If anyone truly believes that they can affect any substantive change in Washington D.C. (District of Criminals) please head there and try. I guarantee if you stay a few months you may learn that there is nothing that you can accomplish without money along with the influence and power it provides.

I was handed my head for trying to change the way things behind the scenes were being done. Fortunately I had amassed enough dirt on the right people that I was allowed to retire quietly as long as I no longer represented a threat their power and to the way things are done.

So go ahead head off to the halls of power and see where it gets you, otherwise all that anyone is doing is wasting their time complaining.

Sail into the sunset and live your life to the best of your ability, anything else is a waste of what little time you have on this planet.

SeaQuest OE II

[boatman61]

This we know, every single lawmaker is bought and paid for from their very first humble position, else they get nowhere.
Its only dumb schmucks who believe in 'Honest Politicians'.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

I have no issue with industry coming up with a viable and less expensive alternative. The issue is an out right ban on the current products, talk is cheap and on-line is free but actions speak louder than words. I have walked the halls of congress (U.S.A.), the Pentagon, State Department, Langley and the White House.

Try it sometime and see what you get...Little more than Sore Feet.

The halls of power are greased by MONEY and that goes for any government, that is the reality of the world. If anyone truly believes that they can affect any substantive change in Washington D.C. (District of Criminals) please head there and try. I guarantee if you stay a few months you may learn that there is nothing that you can accomplish without money along with the influence and power it provides.

I was handed my head for trying to change the way things behind the scenes were being done. Fortunately I had amassed enough dirt on the right people that I was allowed to retire quietly as long as I no longer represented a threat their power and to the way things are done.

So go ahead head off to the halls of power and see where it gets you, otherwise all that anyone is doing is wasting their time complaining.

Sail into the sunset and live your life to the best of your ability, anything else is a waste of what little time you have on this planet.

SeaQuest OE II

That's cynical but true - and much of the background history of this microplastic thread.

HOWEVER -- the (1) thing that will force political attention & positive action on this issue is "average people" and "normal people" -- talking to friends about the issues of increasing microplastic contamination - and forming a first-hand, independent, opinion.

It's only conceivable that raising awareness of the issue of microplastic contamination must take place before tens of millions of lobbying dollars specifically flood the airways, and the inducements of compensation marshal the media "opinion leaders" in favor of scary and false stories of attacks on capitalism.

NOTHING else will be realistically effective - and nothing else will work. The good news is - it's the only thing in history ever shown to work. People showing discontent, and forcing the issue. I believe it brought down communism.