Microplastics in the sea

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Epicurean

I guess facts don't care what you think. That's the law AB-1884 Food facilities: single-use plastic straws, “punishable by a fine of not less than $25 or more than $1,000, or by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not exceeding 6 months, or by both.” I'd be happy to have you show me that's not. ..

Apparently, IT'S NOT.
Assembly Bill No. 1884
CHAPTER 576
“42271.
(a) A full-service restaurant shall not provide a single-use plastic straw to a consumer unless requested by the consumer.
(b) This section shall be enforced by an enforcement officer.
The first and second violations of subdivision (a) shall result in a notice of violation,
and any subsequent violation shall constitute an infraction punishable by a fine of twenty-five dollars ($25) for each day the full-service restaurant is in violation,
but not to exceed three hundred dollars ($300) annually. "
☞ https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01720180AB1884

☞ http://www.publichealth.lacounty.gov...tirrersFAQ.pdf

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Epicurean

I guess facts don't care what you think. That's the law AB-1884 Food facilities: single-use plastic straws, “punishable by a fine of not less than $25 or more than $1,000, or by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not exceeding 6 months, or by both.” I'd be happy to have you show me that's not. We have a society where people in power in California try to ram down their views on others they disagree with through force.

It's also true that it's not so simple as outlawing single use plastic - Oh that it were! It takes a lot more energy to make recyclable bags which only pays off if used a lot more times than is commonly thought or than commonly done. Where we used to use two thin "single-use" bags to dump our trash we now buy much thicker trash bags. So more plastic gets used but the store saves money. I find well-intentioned people often ignorantly demand unworkable solutions. And they are absolutely sure they are right and those they disagree with are evil.

Unfortunately a lot of this I really think is about grabbing for power. Eliminating plastic straws won't solve microplastics in the sea. Alexandria Cortez's chief of staff, Chakrabarti, who proposed the "Green New Deal" said: “Do you guys think of it as a climate thing?” Chakrabarti continued. “Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” It's hard to work co-operatively with people who are dishonest.

I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. I'm a believer in Epicurean philosophy as well. One of the thoughts that particularly appeals to me is:

Justice, Epicurus said, is an agreement neither to harm nor be harmed, and we need to have such a contract in order to enjoy fully the benefits of living together in a well-ordered society. Laws and punishments are needed to keep misguided fools in line who would otherwise break the contract. But the wise person sees the usefulness of justice, and because of his limited desires, he has no need to engage in the conduct prohibited by the laws in any case. Laws that are useful for promoting happiness are just, but those that are not useful are not just. (Principal Doctrines 31–40)

Quite a lot of what you've mentioned has been hashed around earlier in this thread. Good points all. I'm running out of my procrastination abilities to specifically repeat my words in it - but it's already there in the record. Peace is the best way - I think we'd all get along in reality. I can tell you are a thinking man, and that's nothing but good - anyway you look at it.

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

However.

We do not have a 'solar OR coal' situation. We have a 'coal AND solar' situation.

The (growing) solar footprint ADDS to the (growing) 'dirty' footprint. The total grows faster than ever.

The ignorant Westerner is turning the other cheek and will deservedly get slapped again. One day all waters will look like Durban harbour.
Imagine a river to which 10 tons of sewage go every day. Now let's add another ton (new total = 11 tons). Is the situation now better or worse than before? Footprint from solar panel productions ADDS to all other footprints.

You cannot get slimmer if you keep on ADDING weight. Adding weight SLOWER is NOT getting slimmer.

It is not. And we need to get slimmer. We need LESS footprint.

The same applies to solar and wind energy. People who use this kind of energy are the same people who have smartphones and cars and will keep these phones on 24 hrs 7 days a week. They will also drive the car to everywhere - also to the supermarket that is just 200 yards down the road.

Sailors in local marina with huge solar arrays deployed over their boats WILL drive their car to the showers block ... Yes, they do. I have seen this with my own eyes. No, they are not Chinese, nor Indians. Germans, Swedes, English - all very environmentally concerned nations. Environmentally concerned, sure, but only as long as their local policeman was looking.

The way to have cleaner Earth is to have FEWER toys, that use LESS energy.

Limit population, go atom, limit number of mobile devices and cars per family.

Hurts? Not PC? 'Silly'? Unrealistic?

Yes, all of the above.

It all will not end up well because we are not wired to care.

1% of tree huggers will not save the remaining 99% of the population. b.

Sounds like you would like to totalitarian world gov? That will not end well for those who try to control others, it never has and it never will.

People will fight Totalitarianism and all that it represents.

SeaQuest OE II

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

No, it's actually that simple: declare that in like 2 or 3 years, single-use plastic is banned unless it's for essential uses (eg medicine). If businesses balk, then let them provide a strategy for their use: either by using biodegradable plastics or by creating and running a recovery/recycling program.

Consumers forced to be responsible for recycling was always a cop-out; it let industry off the hook.

Having and using reusable grocery bags is painless. Here we charge a nickel a single-use bag, which means you have an incentive to reuse, and an out when you forget.

Reusable bags, no single use plastic anything, biodegradable this or that? Nice concept but what you are talking about is not a drop in the ocean of the real world problem.

Like it or not the world is on the cusp of another major war, and if you think your worry about a little plastic is bad for the planet what about depleted Uranium Ordnance? How about a limited Nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran?

We all need to put our concerns in perspective.

SeaQuest OE II

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Epicurean

Unfortunately a lot of this I really think is about grabbing for power. Eliminating plastic straws won't solve microplastics in the sea. Alexandria Cortez's chief of staff, Chakrabarti, who proposed the "Green New Deal" said: “Do you guys think of it as a climate thing?” Chakrabarti continued. “Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” It's hard to work co-operatively with people who are dishonest.

I couldn't resist a debate... first off, if the comment is really "that it's hard to work co-operatively with people who are dishonest" -- it sounds like whoever she is, was being completely honest.

Second, I'd respectfully propose that the reason that kind of language appeals with her base -- is that they feel like they are getting screwed in the economy - while the top 2% pull light-years away from everyone else. In examination - 50 years ago, a person could have just a HS degree, and support a family of 4-6, entirely on one income. After several decades of "trickle down" economics - the facts, statistics, and lifestyles of the average people evidence that they are not being economically trickled down to. In fact, it appears - from again, both the numbers & the facts - that instead of trickling down - all those policy decisions are trickling ENORMOUS wealth up. I personally feel that putting 5k back in the pocket of the middle class - guarantees it's going to be spent back into the economy. 500k to the upper, upper, class is just as likely, if not far more likely, not be be spent back into the economy - it's going to be invested - and very likely, overseas or multi-nationally. Which stimulates demand more?

What's been done for education & vocational training, by policy - in the past 20 years? Costing more or less? Being more effective in creating income, or less effective in creating income? I believe middle class, real wages, are going statistically down.

What has happened to the middle class? Both by the facts, and by the numbers? It's shrinking rapidly.

What has happened to the upper, upper class? Both by the facts, and by the numbers? It's growing rapidly.

So, therefore, I'd bet that particular politician's base - has some pretty good explanations for why they would want to “... really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” What do you think?

And another thing... (once again in the spirit of Seinfeld’s Frank Costanza – someone I have always admired) every person under 30 that I know, essentially believes the earth's habitat is being destroyed, and current government is doing nothing at all - except ridiculing the concerns.

The Green New Deal had environmental action - and unless we are intending to shoot ourselves in the foot - capitalism is looking like an environment destroyer, and we have essentially been hearing for 20 years that any attempt to use government to protect the environment would make our county socialist.

And, once again - where is all of this going, both by the facts & by the numbers? Interest in socialist ideals are increasing. Among who? the younger generations.

And something else - every year the total number of older voters, who have listened to years of media commentary on socialism, and are scared of it -- they die off by the hundreds of thousands, if not, more likely - the millions.

And every year, hundreds of thousands, if not, more likely - millions, of more environmentally concerned voters, turn 18. And what's more - that's the exact same generation that's not doing nearly as well as their parents, and actually, for some - their grandparents. Do you see where this is going? I'm not advocating either way.

My vote is on real capitalism, and the policy decisions I've described - under the Commerce clause. I don't want to type it out again right here... and bore everyone for the 3rd or 4th time though. I'm always open for debate-

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

Reusable bags, no single use plastic anything, biodegradable this or that? Nice concept but what you are talking about is not a drop in the ocean of the real world problem.

Like it or not the world is on the cusp of another major war, and if you think your worry about a little plastic is bad for the planet what about depleted Uranium Ordnance? How about a limited Nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran?

You fix what you can. Example.


Can you fix Israel/Iran? Or US/Iran? (well, if you're a US citizen, then theoretically yes; you have a lever to pull. Next question is... will you?)

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You fix what you can. Example.

That must be because a lot of their customers are concerned about the environment. There's profit in it.

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You fix what you can. Example.

Can you fix Israel/Iran? Or US/Iran? (well, if you're a US citizen, then theoretically yes; you have a lever to pull. Next question is... will you?)

I no longer concern myself with trying to solve the worlds problems, been there some success and many failures with that.

After many years of climbing through the ranks of the Military/Civilian Intelligence ranks I finally reached a position to fully understand how the world at large really works.

After a brief attempt at repairing some of the damage done over the past 60 plus odd years by the U.S. and its vassal states I was allowed to retire if I agreed to keep my mouth shut and fade away quietly.

No one can or is going to be allowed to fix anything that is not in the interests of a small group of people.

SeaQuest OE II

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You fix what you can. Example.

Hay! If Marriott wants to believe that are doing their part, then cool but what good is it really? Oh it is "something" and maybe something is better than nothing but will the effects be noticed by anyone?

Look around at any retail store at the packaging of anything, everything is overpackaged in mostly plastic and inked paper. Look at the food stuffs packaging, the vast majority is way over packaged sometimes for aesthetics, security, health concerns, spoilage or to hide what is actually in the package. How much is actually necessary and how much could be eliminated, how much would be allowed to be eliminated?

There is a global problem with plastic overuse and waste, recycling is a joke even in the developed countries let alone in the third world where is it nonexistent.

I would like to see less trash everywhere but let us be honest, it is not going to happen in my lifetime and likely anyone any of us know either.

So live your life, do the best you can to keep your little piece of the world clean and move on because there is nothing that you or anyone else can do to change they way the world works.

SeaQuest OE II

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

Sounds like you would like to totalitarian world gov? That will not end well for those who try to control others, it never has and it never will.

People will fight Totalitarianism and all that it represents.

SeaQuest OE II

Well. Not quite. Disillusionment with democracy does not imply going bonkers and traveling into the dark past. I am a pessimist that believes in the future. Because all progress in the long run tends to run from the old to the new, not the other way round.


Look at wooden and carbon boats. Look at wooden and alloy spars, cotton and dacron sails. Definitely, we need something new, not Totalitarianism. But the new thing has not been invented yet, it's not even visible on a misty horizon.



'Others' have always been controlled, they are controlled, they will be. Look at countries of the Middle East contolld by Russia and USA. Think of Afghanistan.


I agree this will not end well. If the others are not controlled, this will not end well either.


Draw. Tie. And nobody has any clue how to manage such situations.



No control is bad, look at water quality in Caribbean anchorages.


Too much control is bad, look at hunger in North Korea.


Some people will fight, but many will fight for totalitarian systems (not against them), look at ISIL.


Totalitarianism I do not know an existing example that worked. I think this means it does not need to be fought. It seems to fall under the weight of its own inefficient economy. I can't be in favour of systems that are known to be not viable. This would be stupid and utopian.


It is clear that democracy does not cope either. E.g. with pollution generated in the process of capitalistic production. With the rate at which we consume the existing limited supplies. With the rate we multiply leaving our own children to the future of polluted air, seas and land.



Enlightened absolutism has shown it had weak points too. So I will leave it to be solved by others. There is hardly anything left in my book anyways, and I have no kids that I know of.



Truly, I cannot see any political and economical system that we know of to be able to cope with pollution challenges. None of the ones that showed long term socio-economic viability.


Many years ago, we would have dumped what we had and started inventing something new, something hopefully better than democracy, better than capitalism. But not today. We are too well fed, too lazy, too busy consuming. Our kids are playing nintendoes, they are not revolutionaires.


In Sweden older sailboats are cheap as chips. Kids do not want to go sailing. Why get wet, cold and bored.



I dreamt of having any boat when I was their age. Never had any either. Except for the little ones with sails of paper and hulls of tree bark. These were to small to take me to other places, but they carried my dreams forward.


Our forefathers dreamt, we dreamt. But now people just sleep.



yawn



I do not think we will make it far beyond 2100.


barnakiel

[GordMay]

It is what it is, because we let it be so.
While optimism may not always beget success, defeatism will inevitably spawn failure.

[Epicurean]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

... capitalism is looking like an environment destroyer,

My wife had to clean the coffee out of my bib and off the surrounding walls on that one! 90% of the ocean's plastic pollution comes from 10 river's (mostly in socialist China). Anything beyond 1-2 km in China is grey because of smog. There are no night time stars in socialist China because of smog. We didn't trust the food supply in socialist China because there's no concept of product liability. (If enough people are killed they execute the proprietor.) The Communist Party doesn't care about the environment. I taught People's Army doctors who told me the Communist government hid SARS from them - the doctors - until it was impossible to deny. Chernobyl happened in the Socialist Republics, Sadam Hussein burned Kuwaiti oil fields. Hitler, arguably, may have been the only socialist who liked the environment.

When people work together we can clean up the environment. We cleaned up
our air quite a bit. I'm middle class. If someone tries to force socialism on me why would I work with them? If they lie about what they're doing why would I work with them?

My original post was about solutions often not being simple. There is the law of unintended consequences and often things aren't well understood. Too many of the simple-minded solutions will do more harm then good. I just want to avoid those mistakes.

Personally, I'm not jealous of someone else's riches - how does it hurt me if Jeff Bezos is a Gadzillionaire? Dealing with Amazon has benefited me greatly. But if you think having rich people is bad for society (and that's really the essence of socialism) here's an interesting graph that shows even the poorest among us (in the US) isn't so bad off. As a society economically we've never had it so good.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Epicurean

... As a society economically we've never had it so good.

Obviously, you've forgotten (or weren't around) in the 1950 - 1980 era.

[GordMay]

Plastics: What’s recyclable, what becomes trash — and why
➥https://apps.npr.org/plastics-recycl...=pocket-newtab

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Epicurean

(...)



... 90% of the ocean's plastic pollution comes from 10 river's (mostly in socialist China).


(...)

Except that it is not their pseudo socialist socio order that counts here (where we talk pollution) but rater their capitalist methods of production.


More adequately, China is today described as a 'state capitalist system'. At other times it is defined as a 'capitalist country with a socialist facade.'


Very good read on this matter here:


https://www.inkstonenews.com/china-t...rticle/2161467


Have a fine day,
barnakiel