Need to abandon crew

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by FinallyFree

I'll start by saying I know nothing about marine law. I do know about employment and contract law. It would be my suggestion that you have these things laid out in a contract that stipulated what actions you, or said crew were responsible for taking and under what circumstances one could execute on a termination. I would imagine the governing law for the contract would fall under whatever jurisdiction your vesel is registered.

A bit of a guess but it seems reasonable to me. This is how I would try to handle it at least.

While it's good to lay out the expectations and that may head off issues before they arise....

If you arrive at the port ready to ditch a problem guy and the authorities ask for his onward ticket...they will look to you if he doesn't have one. You have a boat that is likely worth something and you could load him up and take him to the next port. They didn't agree to your contract.

At best you can go back to your home country (or where ever the appropriate jurisdiction is) and sue him in civil court to get the ticket money back but odds are if he didn't have the money then, he won't have it after being sued, so even if you win, you won't be reimbursed (getting blood out of a turnip and all that...)

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

In general I find self-labeling as captain or master pretentious, but as far as C&I is concerned someone on board is master. See the forms. As far as officials are concerned they want someone to hold accountable. That's it. It has nothing to do with licenses.

You seem quite committed to making a differentiation that doesn't exist and I'm done talking about.

You're responsible for persons carried into a country until you get them out or they are signed off your crew list. That's it.

@Auspicious - the mistake we both made was commenting on a thread "Need to abandon crew". The title gives insight into the mindset.

The problem boils down to a failure of the "person in charge" to vet crew and to communicate. Crew, even owners who are crew, need to know what is expected of them. "The person in charge" needs to lay this all out in advance. Like I trained my staff (when I had one), "if it ain't in writing it wasn't said".

If that is done there are no surprises, and crew can be sent home if needed.

[goboatingnow]

Sheesh

I never said you can abandon crew

I actually said the opposite

I know for a fact where I’ve changed crew I am not responsible if after immigration and I’ve left they decide to violate their visa conditions.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Snore

@Auspicious - the mistake we both made was commenting on a thread "Need to abandon crew". The title gives insight into the mindset.



The problem boils down to a failure of the "person in charge" to vet crew and to communicate. Crew, even owners who are crew, need to know what is expected of them. "The person in charge" needs to lay this all out in advance. Like I trained my staff (when I had one), "if it ain't in writing it wasn't said".



If that is done there are no surprises, and crew can be sent home if needed.

Since your “ rules” are not of interest to immigration authorities , how can “ crew be sent home if needed

A crew person telling immigration he’s being abandoned against his or her will ( irrespective of your written rules ) will inevitably mean according to some here that you’ll be forced to take him with you !!

By the way “ crew” of a leisure yacht are not staff

The existence of written rules for “ crew” doesn’t change the argument one whit.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

While it's good to lay out the expectations and that may head off issues before they arise....



If you arrive at the port ready to ditch a problem guy and the authorities ask for his onward ticket...they will look to you if he doesn't have one. You have a boat that is likely worth something and you could load him up and take him to the next port. They didn't agree to your contract.



At best you can go back to your home country (or where ever the appropriate jurisdiction is) and sue him in civil court to get the ticket money back but odds are if he didn't have the money then, he won't have it after being sued, so even if you win, you won't be reimbursed (getting blood out of a turnip and all that...)

Correct. Where immigration demand onward tickets and you wish to release the “ crew” member you may indeed have to fork out for a airline ticket.

As I’ve said you must ensure the crew clears immigration before you can leave.

( the interesting things is what happens where the crew doesn’t want to clear immigration )

Presumably it’s worth it if you’ve arrived at that stage.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Snore

@Auspicious - the mistake we both made was commenting on a thread "Need to abandon crew". The title gives insight into the mindset.

The problem boils down to a failure of the "person in charge" to vet crew and to communicate. Crew, even owners who are crew, need to know what is expected of them. "The person in charge" needs to lay this all out in advance. Like I trained my staff (when I had one), "if it ain't in writing it wasn't said".

If that is done there are no surprises, and crew can be sent home if needed.

I mostly agree with you @Snore. Whether on a delivery or skippering one's own boat, vetting crew is critical. Whether you use an explicit crew agreement as you do or a email-based contract as I do doesn't change the fact that we have an agreement on responsibility.

The reality is that we are responsible for the repatriation of crew until C&I (all four or five pieces of them, depending on country) agree that they are signed off our crew list. That we have a contractual agreement with crew that s/he is responsible for getting to and from the boat on their own nickel is NOT their problem. "You go deal with that in your own courts, in the meantime get this butthead out of our country. You can leave and take him/her with you or put them on an airplane. We don't care. You're accountable.

It's easier on delivery, and pretty decent as long as there is good communication with supplemental crew on owner boats. Where things get tricky is the social or hopefully-social crew/partner relationships with so many complexities. The key element to remember is that C&I et al DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR PETTY PROBLEMS. The boat owner may well be the butthead and the usually female crew the aggrieved party (in which case there may be support from local law enforcement and national embassies. The latter is a trick for Americans and many other First World citizens who don't have embassies to turn to in every country in the Caribbean in particular. See https://www.state.gov/caribbean/ . As far as C&I is concerned, you are responsible for repatriation. If you have a contractual agreement (assuming all Americans) deal with it at home in small claims court. In the meantime, will that be Visa or Mastercard? Brits can look here https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money . I think.

The key is to get C&I to approve getting someone off your crew list. Then you aren't responsible any more. Until then, you/we are.

[goboatingnow]

So you are telling me that when i land US crew in the U.K. I am responsible for their repatriation !!!

I must speak to the border agency personnel again and remind them how sloppy they are being

I also need to update French and Spanish immigration because clearly they don’t understand their obligations

[Snore]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

So you are telling me that when i land US crew in the U.K. I am responsible for their repatriation !!!

I must speak to the border agency personnel again and remind them how sloppy they are being

I also need to update French and Spanish immigration because clearly they don’t understand their obligations

So let’s not do “make believe” let’s do real deal.

March of 2020 I pick up a cat in Panama for delivery to FLA. Crew comprises of two of the owners friends (great guys) traveling on Lithuanian passports.

They have a visa that is good only if they fly into the US. Original float plan is sail to Bimini, they fly to US and back to Bimini. At that point they can legally sail into the US on a private boat. Don’t ask me why, but then are the rules.

COVID closes Bimini, we have significant mechanical issues onboard, so diverting to Mexico is not an option.

When I landed in Key West- I was fined by CBP. As the master (guy in charge of boat), I should have worked “something out”.

The logic of the guys in Key West is not relevant. Candidly it is another reason I try not to clear in there.

What is relevant is that they fined ME. Not the crew, not the owner but ME. So yes you are responsible.

Kudos to the owner who reimbursed me.

[goboatingnow]

Of course they’ve fined you. You delivered a person via a means not allowed by the US into the US.

As I repeatedly said. YOU as captain are responsible until they are cleared in LEGALLY

[CarinaPDX]

You know, repeating yourself ad infinitum doesn't make you right. Being one of many here that has had to buy a ticket for a crew in order to get them off a crew list I know I this happens - why do you keep saying that we are wrong? Some countries act in the manner you say, and others don't. Precisely because recreational vessels are not covered under treaty there are differences, but because there is a treaty some countries find it useful to apply the same standards as commercial to recreational. Bottom line: skippers must take care for their arrangements with crew for ongoing travel.

Greg

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

You know, repeating yourself ad infinitum doesn't make you right. Being one of many here that has had to buy a ticket for a crew in order to get them off a crew list I know I this happens - why do you keep saying that we are wrong? Some countries act in the manner you say, and others don't. Precisely because recreational vessels are not covered under treaty there are differences, but because there is a treaty some countries find it useful to apply the same standards as commercial to recreational. Bottom line: skippers must take care for their arrangements with crew for ongoing travel.

Greg

do you actually read anything

A captain must do whatever is required to ensure so called “ crew “ are legally cleared in , that “ may” mean ensuring the crew person has onward travel booked. This is not unusual for tourist arrivals in many countries

With the exception of a few countries , once the occupant (s) of the yacht are successfully and legally cleared in . The captain of the yacht had no further obligations.

Note that crew list management is often subjected to different rules. Ie yachts may have to get approval to change crew lists etc. This doesn’t undermine my previous point.

For example , I once sailed with certain US crew. I had to ensure they cleared into the U.K. , France and Spain . In all cases once cleared in legally they were not bound to the yacht not was I responsible any further for their activities. Several times they went off to do tourist things while I left in the yacht.

I had similar experiences in Scandinavia , and a couple of North African countries ( some years ago ) and selected Caribbean countries . In several cases I departed and we changed captains etc. Again the yacht had no obligation to me once I legally cleared into the country and satisfied whatever requirements were necessary.

Leisure yachts in general ( there are a few exceptions) clear crew in as simple tourists , but often under particular requirements since they arrive by yacht , eg the US doesn’t allow the wavier scheme etc.

This is completely different for commercial crew. Commercial crew benefit from a series of treaties and agreements rather like aircraft crew.

This provides various forms of temporary or time limited immigration procedures , port visas , transit visas , limited no visa entry etc. Equally such treaties have specific repartition in order to prevent crews being paid off and left with no ability to get home.

In these cases the captain is responsible under these special immigration procedures to ensure those crew are either removed on the ship or that a method of repatriation is available to the crew member departing.

None of these treaties cover recreational yachts. That’s not to say countries don’t have all sorts of arrival and departure formalities for yachts, of course they do.

But to suggest there is some sort of blanket obligation to former crew that continues after who they legally is incorrect. Yes there are some countries that make the captain financially responsible but it’s the exception rather then the norm in my experience and understanding

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by lo2jones

Jokes aside, the captain can be held criminally liable if a crew member is injured or injures themselves whey they are being “dealt with.”

So, for all of you professional delivery Captains who post here, how are we clients protected if your hired crew or good buddies or whomever you needed to get the job done flakes out, bails out, falls off the boat at night or causes an international incident at some third world immigration office?

Seems to me the boat owner may be in the line of fire somehow. Please explain how your client will suffer no harm or just what risk we assume.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ixnax

So, for all of you professional delivery Captains who post here, how are we clients protected if your hired crew or good buddies or whomever you needed to get the job done flakes out, bails out, falls off the boat at night or causes an international incident at some third world immigration office?

Seems to me the boat owner may be in the line of fire somehow. Please explain how your client will suffer no harm or just what risk we assume.

The usual practice is the owners insurance covers the delivery trip in exactly the same way as usual.

In the past I carried personal insurance but it became too expensive post 2000. In general terms insurance follows ownership not command as a captain in itself has no insurable interest

Typically the delivery paperwork includes an owners release and confirmation of insurance.

Yacht insurance may or may not have cover for personal injuries.

The whole area is fraught with “grey” and different countries have access to different insurance products also.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ixnax

So, for all of you professional delivery Captains who post here, how are we clients protected if your hired crew or good buddies or whomever you needed to get the job done flakes out, bails out, falls off the boat at night or causes an international incident at some third world immigration office?

Seems to me the boat owner may be in the line of fire somehow. Please explain how your client will suffer no harm or just what risk we assume.

A number of questions about different things.

I get a letter of authorization to operate the boat from the owner. The owner has me added as a named insured to his/her policy. Usually there is no cost for this as the risk to the insurance company is less with me driving than the owner. *grin* I'll also note that I do a lot of owner-aboard/training deliveries for new owners that bought more boat than the insurance company is comfortable insuring. Accordingly I have a history with quite a few insurance companies.

For a passage of any substance I staff three crew plus me, so if anything happens to anyone we can still staff a full watch schedule. I have had crew time out when we've had to stop due to failures. I work with the owners on schedule and restaff. That has not been a problem to date. I can tell some stories but they would only be examples. Every case is different.

I've never lost anyone overboard. I don't see that falling on the owner. Conventional response - call for SAR, search pattern, coordinate with responders. Do what the authorities say.

I've never had crew arrested or otherwise cause a major incident. I did have a minor one. Despite a briefing about C&I ("only answer questions directed at you - don't try to help - be succinct, don't volunteer information - don't ask questions") one crew member asked for directions to a doctor or clinic. *sigh* We spent three days chained to the dock in quarantine. Worst case the owner would have been billed for dockage and the fees for the doctor to come each day to see my crew member who had the sniffles. The sheepish crew member did volunteer to pay the doctor's fees. We still had plenty of food from the passage. The owner was going to leave the boat there for a while anyway. We didn't have much else to do so we cleaned. A lot. *grin* The marina was one where I am known so staff kindly got me a data SIM (which I would have gotten anyway) and we watched a lot of movies. Through a combination of planning (food), luck, and personal responsibility (the sheepish crew member) the owner bore no extra cost. I chose not to charge my day rate for that time.

IANAL. I got a good bit of contract law in business school and experience in the corporate world. I think that in worst case the owner's exposure is the value of the boat less insurance coverage. That would be a pretty bad case.

Remember that my life is in the hands of crew so I'm careful. I've had some great crew and a lot of good crew and about three (over twenty years) that stand out as pretty bad. One got put off at an intermediate stop. One was on a short trip (four days) and made it to the end. For the last I gave serious thought to putting him off without necessarily stopping at a dock; or land. He came out of the watch rotation and told not to touch ANYTHING.

I'd much rather remember and talk about the great ones. *grin*

Thinking about owner's in the context of abandonment, I have never abandoned an owner. I've had a number of boats suffer failures and put in lots of unbilled hours managing repairs, some quite substantial and time consuming. One boat suffered a major rig failure and the owner decided as long as we would be laid up for a while to work off a long punch list originally planned for the final destination. The work took six weeks, longer than I could stay so I found a WFH person (long before COVID) that I knew(ish) from another forum who came and lived on the boat and acted as owner-agent. That worked out great. We had daily phone calls, two a week with the owner as well, and everyone came out happy. I went home and got more work done, the WFH guy got a change of scenery and a learning experience, the owner had someone on board who only had his interests to heart, and the marine services people (Yacht Management Group in Dania Beach FL) didn't have to play telephone tag for information and authorization. The owner paid the gas for the WFH guy driving to and from the boat and tipped him. Great deal all around. I flew back in with new crew and finished the delivery.

I personally feel a fiduciary duty to my customers. I spend their money like it is my own. Other delivery skippers may feel less strongly. The ones I know best are pretty supportive of their owners, even when the owners are being silly.

I hope this answers your questions, at least from my perspective.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by ixnax

So, for all of you professional delivery Captains who post here, how are we clients protected if your hired crew or good buddies or whomever you needed to get the job done flakes out, bails out, falls off the boat at night or causes an international incident at some third world immigration office?

Seems to me the boat owner may be in the line of fire somehow. Please explain how your client will suffer no harm or just what risk we assume.

Let me begin with referring to my previous posts. I screen anyone who will be aboard. There are guys I know who I would NEVER have as crew.

Anyone who is aboard (including owners) must sign a crew form, it specifies- no weapons, no drugs, no cannabis (we are operating under Federal laws), you are required to disclose any medications you take and finally you list your emergency contact (next of kin). It also authorizes me to inspect your gear.

As to falling off? On my boats from sunset to sunrise ANYONE not in the cabin clips in. If things are 'sporty' I will order crew to clip in. I arrive at most jobs with 100' of dyneema and my splicing gear. Jacklines are rigged and I whip up some loops around hard points in the cockpit for us to use. No one goes forward except me, or someone I trust, and no one goes forward without someone else on deck.

Anyone stupid enough to bad mouth immigration, is not on my boat! Standing order is that I do the talking and they smile. If crew are asked a question, treat them like they are your mother.

As to insurance?? Yes, like most delivery guys I operate under the owner's insurance. And there is some risk there, hence your need to do due diligence. BUT here's a scary thought..... Almost every time an owner adds me to their policy, I have to fill out a questionnaire. One of the questions is always "have you been involved in a loss".

Stated differently, a delivery guy is one mess-up/insurance claim from being close to unemployed. So when I do a delivery your boat is operated rather conservatively. And make sure crew will do as directed, since even when I sleep- I am responsible for your boat.