Need to abandon crew

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Hey! Lay off CarinaPDX.



Yes, we all have been reading and reading and reading your copious posts, goboatingnow. Thank you so much for deigning to set us ignorant sailors on the correct path of your superlative wisdom of all things everywhere on Planet Earth.



Carina and Auspicious and Snore and a number of others all have put forward accurate rebuttals - which you continue to dispute.



Not sure what you're getting out of this beligerence...



Does anyone remember Kenomac? This reminds me a lot of him. And he's been since banned from the Forum. As well as Sailing Anarchy. Hm...



LittleWing77

They have not actually put forward any actual experiences where they were forced to be responsible for repatriating a crew person or forced to pay a fine AFTER the person had cleared in successfully ( note AFTER)

People keep going on about “ crew” you don’t have “ crew” in the legal sense board a leisure yacht normally.

I’m not being belligerent I am stating that facts as per my explicit experience. That experience stretches over 30 years of dropping off and picking up crew.

Most leisure sailors have little explicit experience of this type of activity as they traditionally have a fixed crew for the voyage.

I asked a specific question has anyone been prosecuted or fined where a person onboard properly and legally cleared in and after the fact violated some aspect of their clearance . I’ve never heard of any such activity.

I have heard of fines where illegal immigration was attempted. That’s a whole different ball game

No one has actually come forward with any direct experience to actually challenge what i said.

Again Let’s do it close to home

Are you telling me if I take a US occupant on my yacht into the U.K. I’m responsible for him or her AFTER they successfully clear into the country AS TOURISTS. ( which is what they clear in as)

Please answer the question

Let’s then consider a few more countries where I have dropped of non national “crew” !

[ixnax]

Snore and Auspicious,

Thank you both. I remain with some questions but will hold them waiting on other replies. Regarding someone falling off, I'm sure everyone has precautions and tried and true safety procedures, so no explanations needed. It was asked tongue in cheek. I was more thinking of simply waking up at a marina and a crew member is gone, or similar.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ixnax

Snore and Auspicious,

Thank you both. I remain with some questions but will hold them waiting on other replies. Regarding someone falling off, I'm sure everyone has precautions and tried and true safety procedures, so no explanations needed. It was asked tongue in cheek. I was more thinking of simply waking up at a marina and a crew member is gone, or similar.

Sure. That's the biggest problem - someone does a runner. Crew decides they aren't having fun anymore, grab a cab to the airport and fly home. They're fine. You--as skipper--on the other hand have someone on your crew list you can't account for. You can't clear out. This has not happened to me personally but I have helped sort it out for a couple of colleagues. It was painful, required a lot of time on the phone and lots of pictures of documents emailed back and forth. No risk of fines or jail, just no clearance until it got sorted out. It really helps to have broadband Internet and unlimited minutes. *grin*

Recently I had a boat that had to divert to Bermuda. I think you can tell I'm careful, so no surprise that I had pictures of plane tickets and copies of confirmation email for all my outbound crew. When I flew back in with new crew I had all that and USCG document and cruising permit and pictures of passports and we got the crew list updated at the airport on the way in. Bermuda government, in my opinion, is an example for good and organized governance. I had copies of everything with me at the dock in St George's to check out and didn't need any of it because the C&I at the airport had sent everything over. As it happens there was a guy from Bermuda Radio up on the hill who had called down to be sure they got their share of the brownies I'd baked. I love those guys.

None of this stuff is hard. Just follow the rules and don't come across as some entitled yachtie.

[JPA Cate]

Usually, on the South Pacific run, one obtains what are essentially tourist visas before arrival.

I think most of the arguments here have been a failure of terminologies. It is that in many places, visas are issued on arrival, and the skipper and crew are all on tourist visas [not work visas, or some other one], ultimately. Crew on crew lists have to be removed from the crew list with crew and skipper at Immigration. Penalties may apply, according to nation visited.

However, some Country's citizens are not allowed that privilege of the instant visa. That skipper and boat and crew may be deported altogether, or possibly just the crew. We knew a guy with a girlfriend born in Colombia, and they were told to leave Australia, but given 3 days in which to provision essentials. I do not know whether or not the woman had any kind of criminal record. Another instance, US citizens with marijuana violations on their records were not allowed into Canada. This may have changed now, but it was in place at one time.

So, as Auspicious says, pay close attention to the requirements of the country you're visiting, fulfill them, and be pleasant when you do. It leaves a clean wake for those who come after you.

Ann

[PatMc57]

Originally Posted by Bill O

How about banishing the offending crew to the dinghy (in tow) until they straighten out????lol

I've had to do that...worked amazingly well...Once

[CarinaPDX]

I really don't understand GoBoatingNow's bull-headed approach. But yet again:

I brought a crew into Curacao and we cleared in and received our visas. And he was still on my crew list. I had to leave the next day to be with my dying mother so, as per previous agreement, I told my crew to buy a ticket and then get himself off my crew list. (Carina was moved to bonded status.) When I returned a month later he was still there (on the island - not on my boat) and I told him to get the hell off of my crew list - but he wanted to stay and he refused to buy the ticket as per agreement, so he stayed far away from the port captain. He worked illegally and caused all sorts of minor mayhem, and in many ways I paid the price. Eventually when I left I took him with me to Bonaire (because I couldn't leave without him or getting him off my crew list by buying a ticket to South Africa), checking out and then checking in with new visas and him still on my crew list. He had friends in Bonaire so he was happy. Fortunately he wanted to stay in Bonaire before going on to Venezuela so I was able to finally get him removed from my crew list for the price of a ticket to Caracas. Just because we had cleared into these two islands did not mean that he was off of my crew list and no longer my responsibility. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT???? Repeating your (mis)understanding ad nauseum does not make you right. Sheeesh... I'm sorry to be rude but you are really pissing me off. Your experiences are not the only ones, and most certainly not universal. Just because we all were landed with visas did not get me off the hook for my crew. Your understanding that once landed with visas we go our merry ways is just wrong in many cruising spots. And for all reading: crew can be a very big problem once landed, and you simply cannot trust them to cough up for the ticket when the time comes. Get and hold the ticket or money, or potentially suffer the consequences.

Greg

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I really don't understand GoBoatingNow's bull-headed approach. But yet again:
I
I brought a crew into Curacao and we cleared in and received our visas. And he was still on my crew list. I had to leave the next day to be with my dying mother so, as per previous agreement, I told my crew to buy a ticket and then get himself off my crew list. (Carina was moved to bonded status.) When I returned a month later he was still there (on the island - not on my boat) and I told him to get the hell off of my crew list - but he wanted to stay and he refused to buy the ticket as per agreement, so he stayed far away from the port captain. He worked illegally and caused all sorts of minor mayhem, and in many ways I paid the price. Eventually when I left I took him with me to Bonaire (because I couldn't leave without him or getting him off my crew list by buying a ticket to South Africa), checking out and then checking in with new visas and him still on my crew list. He had friends in Bonaire so he was happy. Fortunately he wanted to stay in Bonaire before going on to Venezuela so I was able to finally get him removed from my crew list for the price of a ticket to Caracas. Just because we had cleared into these two islands did not mean that he was off of my crew list and no longer my responsibility. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT???? Repeating your (mis)understanding ad nauseum does not make you right. Sheeesh... I'm sorry to be rude but you are really pissing me off. Your experiences are not the only ones, and most certainly not universal. Just because we all were landed with visas did not get me off the hook for my crew. Your understanding that once landed with visas we go our merry ways is just wrong in many cruising spots. And for all reading: crew can be a very big problem once landed, and you simply cannot trust them to cough up for the ticket when the time comes. Get and hold the ticket or money, or potentially suffer the consequences.

Greg

I acknowledged exceptions exist. But in general in my experience and I keep stressing this , certainly in major countries once I cleared them in , I had no issue updating my crew list and departing.

I never said my experiences were universal. I merely argued the reverse equally wasn’t true. I listed the countries where my experience was as I described it.

If I’m pissing you off , don’t read the thread

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Eventually when I left I took him with me to Bonaire (because I couldn't leave without him or getting him off my crew list by buying a ticket to South Africa), checking out and then checking in with new visas and him still on my crew list. He had friends in Bonaire so he was happy. Fortunately he wanted to stay in Bonaire before going on to Venezuela so I was able to finally get him removed from my crew list for the price of a ticket to Caracas. Just because we had cleared into these two islands did not mean that he was off of my crew list and no longer my responsibility.

Hi Greg. I think part of what is being missed is that we are not talking about rules imputed by different individual experiences. We are talking about real rules and laws based on international agreements. Consider that every country in the world agrees on how passports and visas work. Same with complete interoperability of VHF and HF marine and aviation radio licenses. It's truly incredible.

There is no question that some countries and indeed some officers are less rigorous about enforcing laws and regulations. That doesn't mean the laws and regulations are not in place, and that we are only one misstep from having those land on our heads. Further, failing to operate wholly within the law contributes to the poor reputation of cruisers and other recreational boaters among officials.

You, Greg, did the right thing despite a poorly behaved crew member. It's always nice to see someone who knows the rules and follows them.

I'm always glad to see a printer when I get on a boat. I can write out the crew list and stores list by hand, and do, but typed is more professional and a lot easier, and C&I definitely appreciates not having to copy all the information from passports onto their forms. Courtesy.

[ixnax]

When I posted my inquiry I actually expected more delivery Captains to chime in, not to be it seems.

I've only hired delivery Captains twice. Once for a crewed delivery from Buenos Aires to Grenada and another, with his mate, to assist us in bringing a Cat from Florida to St. Lucia. For that one, I think, I tried for Snore but he was busy.

The crewed delivery from Buenos Aires, with an Argentine Captain, left me with an after the fact case of the heebie jeebies. Two small items I'll offer just to help the story. One, whereas he was flat rated for his fee it turned out he paid his crew by the day. I suspect that contributed to the fact that my engines had twice the normal time expected on arrival. Also, to save time bothering with customs along the way, he chose out of the way places to stop. One time putting two 4 inch gashes in my new dinghy from coming against a rock jetty so they could go ashore at night.

The assisted ferry had it's own drama's. The Captain had unfortunate cleanliness habits on a vessel with 4 heads, two water makers, and no showering restrictions. He also felt that life jackets on solo night watch were unnecessary and his mate thought that watch was for reading with the lights all on. Both though it was more a date cruise than a delivery.

The Captain, who had a South African Passport, also found it hard to conform to an agreed to I do the talking plan at USVI Customs thus pissing off the officer on duty.

There are more items for both unsaid.

Both experiences caused me to think that, unless you are a Maritime Lawyer, the boat owner has as much bargaining power as the guy with a cardboard sign at the onramp once the boat is underway.

What I've come to realize is that A) That's pretty much true, and B) Given that at best our asses are hanging out when entrusting our vessels to a delivery Captain it behooves us to choose wisely.

The very good news is that as I've read and communicated with two delivery Captains on these pages I now know that we are fortunate to have access to very good choices.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ixnax

I've only hired delivery Captains twice. Once for a crewed delivery from Buenos Aires to Grenada and another, with his mate, to assist us in bringing a Cat from Florida to St. Lucia.

From your descriptions I can understand the heebie jeebies.

Some thoughts.

The only reasons I stop are that something is broken, I absolutely must get fuel, or we’ve reached the destination. A delivery is not a cruise? Why stop?

Flat rate fees don’t make sense to me. They smell of desperation on the part of the skipper. When I plan a route for a proposal there is enough conservatism that I can usually come in under budget, but if something happens and it takes longer the customer pays for those extra days. Some skippers do charge by the mile which is essentially a means to calculate a flat rate.

Fuel costs and engine hours do tend to be higher on a delivery than a cruise. I’m a little more deterministic than most. I keep a fuel management spreadsheet (can’t trust fuel gauges) and use that to compare the financial impact to the customer of sailing slowly with more days at my rate or motoring burning fuel over fewer days. This philosophy is in my proposals and is subject to discussion. If the owner wants us to motor as little as possible that’s fine. S/he will end up paying a bit more day rate and we’ll beef up provisioning so we don’t have to stop along the way.

I have some other terms and conditions, mostly in the interests of the owner, that would look like an advertisement which is not my intent, so I’ll pass on those.

Never ever cut corners on laws and regulations. I had one owner suggest I anchor on the Bahama Banks without clearing in. We had a discussion about what innocent passage really means and that if the RBDF was on an enforcement programme he could have his boat impounded. Strict adherence to the rules.

Light discipline is a sensitive point for me.

For me, there is a clear demarcation of roles and responsibilities between owner and skipper. If the owner wants to change the destination for example, that is the owner’s prerogative. It is the skippers duty to get there safely. The owner can always fire the skipper. Choosing the best time and place for that is a judgment call. *grin*

I do a good bit of owner-aboard training deliveries when people buy more boat than they can insure. Even in training and certainly in practicum owners act as skipper with coaching and assessment BUT I can overrule if safety of people or the boat is at risk. I ensure that is clearly understood. Usually it isn’t hard as the owners really want me to sign off on them and don’t want to start over with another guy.

I’ve gotten some work and a number of crew from CF. My posts here are to share information. Karma-building if you will.

[Snore]

A few thoughts-- First, yes I believe we did speak.

@Auspicous- depending on the passage, I will bid a job “not to exceed”, with a daily rate. If I route faster than planned and bring it in early, the customer is billed less. If things break, and I need to reroute, and that results in more than the planned number of days- the total cost goes up. Especially with new boat owners, this pricing model gives a level of comfort. Of course since customer can always see where their boat is on my inReach, they know I am not sailing around in circles...

My recurring comment is communication. Pre-contract my customers and I spend 6-8 hours talking. There has to be some comfort both customer to me and me with the customer. Owner and delivery guy need to communicate their expectations. For example, one of my standard first meeting conversations includes “Are you a vegetarian or vegan?” I am not, and unable to fully function on that type of diet (I have tried). My contract is a 4-page document. It lays out what I will do, what is expected, and what can happen. If a customer has a particular concern (for example navigation limits in their insurance policy), that is added to the contract.

Originally Posted by ixnax

The very good news is that as I've read and communicated with two delivery Captains on these pages I now know that we are fortunate to have access to very good choices.

Most insightful

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Snore

“Are you a vegetarian or vegan?”

I've done vegetarian, vegan, Halal, and Kosher. Takes more work.

[Auspicious]

On a restricted access delivery skipper list, reported an entire crew was deported for not having the crew list properly maintained. Boat was impounded but eventually released to the skipper to depart. Bunch of people who can't go back to Norway.

[JPA Cate]

Yes, plus they may become persona non grata elsewhere as well, and the boat itself will acquire extra Quarantine, Customs, and Immigration attention, more or less in perpetuity. Know someone who sold their boat because of that.

Ann