Need to abandon crew

[Pukakai]

Speaking of forms for the crew to sign, how would you like to have to sign this form before a crossing from WA to HI?

1. I recognize that sailing is an activity that has an inherent risk of damage and injury associated with it, and hereby acknowledge and agree that I am participating in this event, (sailing on XXXXXX from Seattle to Hawaii, and if applicable, from Hawaii to Seattle, hereinafter, the “Event”), entirely at my own risk.
2. I acknowledge and agree the neither XXXXXX’s owner, nor the owner’s representatives (the “Owner”) , will be responsible for (a) any damage to my property, or (b) any injury to me, including death, sustained as a result of my participation in the Event.
3. I hereby waive any rights I may have to sue the Owner with respect to personal injury or property damage suffered by me as a result of my participation in the Event, and hereby release the Owner from any liability for such injury or damage to the fullest extent permitted by law, including claims of negligence.
4. I have taken all necessary steps to ensure that I am adequately prepared for all possible contingencies, including appropriate safety equipment that may be required by law, or the a prudent seaman would consider advisable.
5. I HAVE CAREFULLY READ THIS DOCUMENT IN ITS ENTIRETY, UNDERSTAND ALL OF ITS TERMS AND CONDITIONS, AND KNOW THAT IT CONTAINS AN ASSUMPTION OF RISK, RELEASE, AND WAIVER FROM LIABILITY.
Printed Name________________​Date___________
Signature_______________________

I didn’t sign the form nor did anyone else in the crew sign. Conveniently the engine blew a rear seal so the trip was cancelled. However, not being a lawyer nor having a huge amount of legal expertise in these matters, is this a reasonable form to have to sign before taking on a crew job?

[Snore]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

I would love to be there for that conversation.

Have never had an issue. If on some future job, the owner does not wish to sign, they will need another Capt.

Keep in mind, folks hire me because they do not feel comfortable doing a passage.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Snore

Have never had an issue. If on some future job, the owner does not wish to sign, they will need another Capt.

Keep in mind, folks hire me because they do not feel comfortable doing a passage.

I understand fully. I just got a chuckle thinking about you telling an owner he needs to get off the boat so you can take it safely to destination without them aboard!

[Sandy0101]

Originally Posted by GPatron

This does not directly answer your question but might give you a simple solution.

My wife, several years ago, decided that we should have help on our 3 day sail from Tortola to Grenada so I advertised for crew.

Of those who answered our ad “Franz” because of his great sailing resume was our choice. However, the “Franz who showed up was fatter, older, had the personality of an old rogue Walrus. He had to go.

Wanting to avoid the conflict, rancor and perhaps legal consequences we conspired with the local Yanmar dealer to turn a simple, pending 2 day alternator repair into a “6 week wait for parts”.

Franz , who told us he had better things to do, took off on his own accord and left us thankful & relieved .

Well played and thanks for sharing!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by GPatron

Of those who answered our ad “Franz” because of his great sailing resume was our choice.

I'm going to use your experience to share my philosophy in selecting crew, totaling now a few hundred. In the beginning of my delivery work I too focused on sailing skill and experience and I did end up with a few duds. What I realized was that I could teach people to sail but I could not teach them to make good decisions. Accordingly I focus on judgment. I still collect resumes and read them but the phone interview uses the resume to draw out stories in support of a subjective decision about judgment. This is working much better.

Originally Posted by blazing928

Captain has to supply a means of transport back to the port of departure, or where that crew was taken on board.

First an editorial comment. I don't understand why anyone can conclude that s/he can pick and choose what laws apply to them. Too many Americans on too many airplanes who don't understand the mechanics of the visa waiver program and the backbreaking work it took to get that in place? I don't know.

People on your boat are either crew or passengers. Either you're subject to international agreement as codified in national law (crew) or you need a Master's license and a ton of other documentation (passengers). You can't make up a new category of person.

It's a little hard to sift through the current angst over repatriation of mariners stranded by COVID. Here is the basis. https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f..._ILO_CODE:C166 . Note Article 3 paragraph 2:

The destinations so prescribed shall include the place at which the seafarer agreed to enter into the engagement, the place stipulated by collective agreement, the seafarer's country of residence or such other place as may be mutually agreed at the time of engagement. The seafarer shall have the right to choose from among the prescribed destinations the place to which he or she is to be repatriated.

So for us, without the consideration of unionized crew, that means you send them back to where you got them or home or somewhere else mutually agreeable.

Originally Posted by Snore

Don’t you guys have crew agreement forms? Anyone on one of my deliveries - be they paid crew, unpaid crew, and even owners MUST sign a crew agreement form. Spells out what is expected of them, what I may do if they don’t perform, makes them list their meds, makes it clear they are “at will” employees who can be dropped off at nearest port. Where either I buy them a ticket home or they agree before hand to fly themselves home. It also lists their next-of-kin.

I take a somewhat gentler approach that in the end achieves the same goals. I have a slew of emails that go out, one per day, one topic per email to set expectations. In the aggregate they constitute a contract with responsibilities on my part, on the part of the crew, and on the part of the owners whether aboard (as crew) or not.

Of the handful of people I've put off the boat the discussion is not pleasant but not as bad as the times I fired people in my corporate life. Often it comes as a relief as the crew isn't happy either. The discussion usually starts with "This isn't working out." and proceeds pretty much under its own steam from there.

[Stmurray62]

I agree 100 per cent: btw, I’m a Master 100, Delivery Captain…

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I'm going to use your experience to share my philosophy in selecting crew, totaling now a few hundred. In the beginning of my delivery work I too focused on sailing skill and experience and I did end up with a few duds. What I realized was that I could teach people to sail but I could not teach them to make good decisions. Accordingly I focus on judgment. I still collect resumes and read them but the phone interview uses the resume to draw out stories in support of a subjective decision about judgment. This is working much better.







First an editorial comment. I don't understand why anyone can conclude that s/he can pick and choose what laws apply to them. Too many Americans on too many airplanes who don't understand the mechanics of the visa waiver program and the backbreaking work it took to get that in place? I don't know.



People on your boat are either crew or passengers. Either you're subject to international agreement as codified in national law (crew) or you need a Master's license and a ton of other documentation (passengers). You can't make up a new category of person.



It's a little hard to sift through the current angst over repatriation of mariners stranded by COVID. Here is the basis. https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f..._ILO_CODE:C166 . Note Article 3 paragraph 2:







So for us, without the consideration of unionized crew, that means you send them back to where you got them or home or somewhere else mutually agreeable.







I take a somewhat gentler approach that in the end achieves the same goals. I have a slew of emails that go out, one per day, one topic per email to set expectations. In the aggregate they constitute a contract with responsibilities on my part, on the part of the crew, and on the part of the owners whether aboard (as crew) or not.



Of the handful of people I've put off the boat the discussion is not pleasant but not as bad as the times I fired people in my corporate life. Often it comes as a relief as the crew isn't happy either. The discussion usually starts with "This isn't working out." and proceeds pretty much under its own steam from there.

With the greatest respect please stop referencing paid commercial crew legislation and ageeements

these DO NOT apply to leisure boat personnel Who are NOT crew or passengers, they are merely occupants.

In relation to the piece you referenced the following applies

“Article 1
1. This Convention applies to every seagoing ship whether publicly or privately owned which is registered in the territory of any Member for which the Convention is in force and which is ordinarily engaged in commercial maritime navigation and to the owners and seafarers of such ships.”

That DOES NOT apply to the occupants on a leisure yacht.

Let’s stop distracting this argument by confusing us ( ie yacht personnel ) with a deck hand or an AB on a 3000 ton freighter !!!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Sandy0101

I really do not know what countries are being referred to here that require the master of a vessel to take responsibility for a crew’s repatriation. Helpful if some could be named. I’m curious.

ILO C166, which I cited above, is all I can find in international agreement. Since it expired many of the ratifications expired with it. That means you have to hunt down the national law that codifies the agreement which is/may be still in force. Note that in general international agreements are commitments by ratifying member nations to instantiate the agreement in their own law. In the case of repatriation that is https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/part-332 for the United States. By the way, if you have USCG documentation you are subject to the National Shipping Authority (the Maritime Administration (MARAD)). You're also going to be subject to the laws of the country in which you propose to put someone off.

Sandy, my condolences regarding the wandering eyes, hands, and attachments of your ex-husband.

Your example of women flitting from boat to boat fits right in. They are crew. The decision to stay where left falls under "mutually agreeable" in C166. There are three parties to that agreement: the master of the boat, the crew member, and C&I as agents for the country. They may not want her either.

Usually the host country wants to ensure the person staying has the means to avoid becoming a burden. When I update crew lists for crew changes an onward plane ticket (these days a phone pic, it used to be a photocopy). C&I will usually be okay with a week or more visiting and touring before going home.

Inbound crew get a "Master's letter" with a copy of the documentation and if available a cruising permit or license.

I'll be first to say that all this stuff (which really isn't very hard) is not always reviewed in practice, particularly in smaller countries or those in the aftermath of disaster. The challenge for a skipper is that if you don't have all the paperwork and it is called for you'll have a lot of grief generating it ex post facto. You don't want to have inbound crew stuck in C&I who can't show they have transportation to leave the country. You don't want to be stuck in C&I yourself with someone on your crew list that can't be found.

I've been through paperwork to update crew lists in UK, Azores (EU), Bermuda, and Bahamas. I've been through Master's letters for inbound crew in all those places and most of the Eastern Caribbean. I had one crew member whose paperwork through no fault of his own was so snarled that we dropped in the BVI so he could take a ferry to USVI and with the passport stamp there we could pick him up and proceed to the US mainland.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

ILO C166, which I cited above, is all I can find in international agreement. Since it expired many of the ratifications expired with it. That means you have to hunt down the national law that codifies the agreement which is/may be still in force. Note that in general international agreements are commitments by ratifying member nations to instantiate the agreement in their own law. In the case of repatriation that is https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/part-332 for the United States. By the way, if you have USCG documentation you are subject to the National Shipping Authority (the Maritime Administration (MARAD)). You're also going to be subject to the laws of the country in which you propose to put someone off.



Sandy, my condolences regarding the wandering eyes, hands, and attachments of your ex-husband.



Your example of women flitting from boat to boat fits right in. They are crew. The decision to stay where left falls under "mutually agreeable" in C166. There are three parties to that agreement: the master of the boat, the crew member, and C&I as agents for the country. They may not want her either.



Usually the host country wants to ensure the person staying has the means to avoid becoming a burden. When I update crew lists for crew changes an onward plane ticket (these days a phone pic, it used to be a photocopy). C&I will usually be okay with a week or more visiting and touring before going home.



Inbound crew get a "Master's letter" with a copy of the documentation and if available a cruising permit or license.



I'll be first to say that all this stuff (which really isn't very hard) is not always reviewed in practice, particularly in smaller countries or those in the aftermath of disaster. The challenge for a skipper is that if you don't have all the paperwork and it is called for you'll have a lot of grief generating it ex post facto. You don't want to have inbound crew stuck in C&I who can't show they have transportation to leave the country. You don't want to be stuck in C&I yourself with someone on your crew list that can't be found.



I've been through paperwork to update crew lists in UK, Azores (EU), Bermuda, and Bahamas. I've been through Master's letters for inbound crew in all those places and most of the Eastern Caribbean. I had one crew member whose paperwork through no fault of his own was so snarled that we dropped in the BVI so he could take a ferry to USVI and with the passport stamp there we could pick him up and proceed to the US mainland.

Again what you referenced ( ILO C166) DOES NOT apply to non commercial occupants of a yacht, they are not crew as they are not being paid , nor are they passengers as they are not paying.

There are merely occupants who arrive using this means of transport. They are typically and usually processed as tourists ( that doesn’t mean exactly similar processes apply as arrival by airline )

The same difference applies to “passengers” in your car and passengers on a bus. In the former case they are not “ passengers “ in the strict sense again they are merely occupants.

Please stop confusing this issue with reference to conventions and laws that almost always only apply to commercial arrangements.

Commercial sea faring enterprises have all sorts of codes of conducts, conventions, international agreements etc concerning the operation of ships , their paid crew and where appropriate paying passengers. Little if any of this applies to small leisure boats.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That DOES NOT apply to the occupants on a leisure yacht.

With similar respect, I think you're wrong. The forms are the same. Based on being on both sides of the consular window all are treated the same.

Oh - and 3,000 LT is a pretty small ship. Maybe an OSV or an inter-island freighter. Maybe. When I sailed on a 30,000 LT tanker it was considered a small ship.

[goboatingnow]

There are no specific requirements to maintain crew lists arriving or departing the U.K. for example ( the boats personnel are detailed on the arrival departure form C1331 , there is no specific requirement that they remain the same )

Here’s the situation immediately pre COVID

“
For ships carrying 12 people or fewer, the owner or person responsible for the pleasure craft must ensure the family and given names, date of birth and nationality are provided for all passengers.

Anyone on board who is not a British or Irish citizen must obtain a Border Force officer’s permission to enter the UK from a place other than the Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands. The owner or person responsible for the pleasure craft must make sure that anyone requiring immigration clearance (including yourself if appropriate) obtains the necessary permission to enter.

If there is anyone on board requiring immigration clearance, they will need to contact the nearest Border Force office by telephone to arrange clearance. The National Yachtline will be able to advise on how to do this.

Again note the key takeaways

The person entering the U.K. must ensure they can clear in

The yacht cannot abandon them if they can’t clear in

The yacht must inform the authorities if they need immigration clearance ( non U.K. or Irish onboard )

The term “ passenger “ is incorrectly used

The yacht has to provide details of those arriving. This is not a formal crew list merely a record of occupants seeking clearance. ( historically where physical clearance was required handing physically over the passports was sufficient ). Now that in lots of cases there is no actual passport handover , you provide a list of people requiring clearance

Note that C1331 is so described as a a customs declaration form it’s not an immigration control document

Note also that VAT must be paid on stores taken aboard for non commercial voyages. ( again disabusing the oft quoted nonsense about VAT and “ vessels in transit “)

Again in the U.K. once a so called passenger has successfully cleared in , there is no further obligation on the yacht to ensure they ( a) abide by whatever immigration terms they cleared in on and (b) nor has the yacht any further duty of care to that “ passenger “

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

With similar respect, I think you're wrong. The forms are the same. Based on being on both sides of the consular window all are treated the same.

Oh - and 3,000 LT is a pretty small ship. Maybe an OSV or an inter-island freighter. Maybe. When I sailed on a 30,000 LT tanker it was considered a small ship.

What part of

“
PART I. SCOPE AND DEFINITIONS

Article 1
1. This Convention applies to every seagoing ship whether publicly or privately owned which is registered in the territory of any Member for which the Convention is in force and which is ordinarily engaged in commercial maritime navigation and to the owners and seafarers of such ships.
2. To the extent it deems practicable, after consultation with the representative organisations of fishing vessel owners and fishermen, the competent authority shall apply the provisions of this Convention to commercial maritime fishing.
3. In the event of doubt as to whether or not any ships are to be regarded as engaged in commercial maritime navigation or commercial maritime fishing for the purpose of this Convention, the question shall be determined by the competent authority after consultation with the organisations of shipowners, seafarers and fishermen concerned.
“


Don’t you understand

[goboatingnow]

Girls and boys

On a private leisure yacht you are just “ tourists “ own it. You have few rights ( or responsibilities ) if any beyond normal tourists

You are not crew passengers or anyone inloved in the maritime trade.

Yuppie yachties that’s about it.

Sorry

[StoneCrab]

Originally Posted by sck5

I do remember they were insistent on original copies of e.g. your documentation. No copies at all.

This may be a silly question, but obviously you can't "give" them the original, so when you say "insist on original" this is only for them to look at.

I ask because I didn't think it was possible to have multiple copies of the documentation.

The USCG should follow the FCC's lead on licensing. The FCC give you an account where you can manage your licenses and download PDF's that are watermarked "Official". I suppose a blue ink stamped original is more secure, but then again, what could you do with a counterfeit documentation form.

[StoneCrab]

Several posts refer to the Jones Act. Doesn't that only apply to ships traveling between US ports, conducting business in US waters?