Need to abandon crew

[Sandy0101]

Sounds about right mate.

[CarinaPDX]

Oddly enough the number of posts and the number of words is not necessarily a guarantee of truth...

While I am happy to agree that the international treaties don't explicitly cover recreational vessels, in many - but by no means all - countries the same concepts and procedures (or at least a subset of them) are used as for commercial vessels. It is each country's choice to put into its laws, regulations, and procedures whatever it wishes about recreational vessels precisely because the treaties are silent about them. And many countries have elected to use the same procedures, including maintaining of crew lists and repatriation of crew (among others). Others don't. I just note that it can be a very big shock to arrive unaware that these rules are being strictly applied - which was my experience in the Dutch West Indies (and less surprisingly later in other countries in the world). It is certainly not the case that crews of arriving recreational vessels are always treated as simple tourists - I personally have had experiences to the contrary.

Greg

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Oddly enough the number of posts and the number of words is not necessarily a guarantee of truth...

While I am happy to agree that the international treaties don't explicitly cover recreational vessels, in many - but by no means all - countries the same concepts and procedures (or at least a subset of them) are used as for commercial vessels. It is each country's choice to put into its laws, regulations, and procedures whatever it wishes about recreational vessels precisely because the treaties are silent about them. And many countries have elected to use the same procedures, including maintaining of crew lists and repatriation of crew (among others). Others don't. I just note that it can be a very big shock to arrive unaware that these rules are being strictly applied - which was my experience in the Dutch West Indies (and less surprisingly later in other countries in the world). It is certainly not the case that crews of arriving recreational vessels are always treated as simple tourists - I personally have had experiences to the contrary.

Greg

I can tell you Sint Maarten for example applies normal tourist entry conditions to arrivals by yacht. This can include onward tickets , proof of funds , Dutch Caribbean visas and so forth. ( under the tourist rules an visa holder must be invited into the country and as a result the invitee can be held responsible )

The rules around crew repatriation are typically not national laws but maritime conventions or treaties typical IMO/UN brokered. These do not apply to leisure yachts. Most maritime countries are signatories to these treaties and enforce them through national law.

Again , I know in Sint Maarten , once you are successful cleared in , and you ARE cleared in as a tourist , the yacht has no further responsibility
Crew lists are merely records of arriving and departing occupants of the yacht.

The fact is the occupants of a leisure yacht have to be cleared in as tourists there is no other category that applies.

That is not to say the process is identical to arriving by “ scheduled “ commercial transport.

Nor it’s it to say that yachts may have to comply with specific regulations set out for leisure yachts. Those certainly exist.

The point is after successful occupant clear in , the yacht , is with some notable exceptions ( Cuba being one ) not then responsible for that person.
As I said , the yacht IS responsible to ensure the occupant are correctly cleared in and for any that cannot do so , it must remove them from the country.

I am not arguing that in order to say successfully clear in a occupant , it ( or someone ) may have to fund airline tickets , and so forth. That’s merely in line with whatever tourist visa restrictions that apply ( ie the same thing applies to tourists flying in)

Hence I’m not saying you can “ abandon “ crew with out further concern. As I’ve stated , the yacht remains responsible in most cases ( and i except there are a few special cases ) up to the point the person successfully clears in.

This is different with commercial crew where a duty of care exits etc.

[goboatingnow]

I do except and acknowledge certain countries have more onerous conditions

Figi for example makes the master of the vessel financially responsible for the arrivals ( who ARE processed as tourists ) until they depart figi “ by whatever means “ so should that person break their tourist visa obligations , and hence run up debts or fines , etc. and not be able to pay them , then the master is responsible

But that’s not the same as saying they have a defined duty of repatriation for example

The yacht cannot abandon crew , I never said it could. ( ie dump them and run )

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I can tell you Sint Maarten for example applies normal tourist entry conditions to arrivals by yacht. This can include onward tickets , proof of funds , Dutch Caribbean visas and so forth. ( under the tourist rules an visa holder must be invited into the country and as a result the invitee can be held responsible )

The rules around crew repatriation are typically not national laws but maritime conventions or treaties typical IMO/UN brokered. These do not apply to leisure yachts. Most maritime countries are signatories to these treaties and enforce them through national law.

Again , I know in Sint Maarten , once you are successful cleared in , and you ARE cleared in as a tourist , the yacht has no further responsibility
Crew lists are merely records of arriving and departing occupants of the yacht.

The fact is the occupants of a leisure yacht have to be cleared in as tourists there is no other category that applies.

That is not to say the process is identical to arriving by “ scheduled “ commercial transport.

Nor it’s it to say that yachts may have to comply with specific regulations set out for leisure yachts. Those certainly exist.

The point is after successful occupant clear in , the yacht , is with some notable exceptions ( Cuba being one ) not then responsible for that person.
As I said , the yacht IS responsible to ensure the occupant are correctly cleared in and for any that cannot do so , it must remove them from the country.

I am not arguing that in order to say successfully clear in a occupant , it ( or someone ) may have to fund airline tickets , and so forth. That’s merely in line with whatever tourist visa restrictions that apply ( ie the same thing applies to tourists flying in)

Hence I’m not saying you can “ abandon “ crew with out further concern. As I’ve stated , the yacht remains responsible in most cases ( and i except there are a few special cases ) up to the point the person successfully clears in.

This is different with commercial crew where a duty of care exits etc.

YOU might “know” this, but the immigration officers in Sint Maartin apparently do not. Could you explain their laws to them please? They insisted on seeing the outboard airline tickets for every crew member on the boat who wasn’t checking out with the boat.

What would have happened if we could not supply them? I have no idea, because we followed the rules and had copies of the tickets to present.

FYI, This was in April of this year.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by BillKny

YOU might “know” this, but the immigration officers in Sint Maartin apparently do not. Could you explain their laws to them please? They insisted on seeing the outboard airline tickets for every crew member on the boat who wasn’t checking out with the boat.



What would have happened if we could not supply them? I have no idea, because we followed the rules and had copies of the tickets to present.



FYI, This was in April of this year.

Good god people simply don’t read what I said

I said that tourists regularly are required to have return or outbound tickets in order to clear in through immigration. This applies in Sint Maarten and many other countries especially small island jurisdictions

This applies to those arriving by airline equally as a leisure yacht.

All I have been saying is that yacht occupants clear in as tourists. They clear in using whatever tourist rules apply to such clearing in and those processes may not be identical to airlines etc

What I also said are yacht crew are not commercial crew and do not have those protections agreed by international treaty

We clear in as a form of tourist

I explained that until you clear in the yacht is responsible , after that “ in general “ once cleared in the yacht is no longer responsible ( with some exceptions )

I have cleared into Sint Maarten , the officials there told me that the requirement to have an outbound ticket was not absolute but is at the discretion of the authorities. For example as a EU citizen I was allowed 90 days no visa required with no outboard ticket requirement there ( a coupe of years ago ). But those arriving on a visa where expected to have a means of leaving the area available.

Tourists in many many countries are often required to have their means of return proved to allow them to clear in . Nothing new in that. That applies to arriving by airline also.

It used to be very common clearing into the USA also ( less now since the wavier scheme !, wavier only applies to arrivals by scheduled transport )

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It used to be very common clearing into the USA also ( less now since the wavier scheme !, wavier only applies to arrivals by scheduled transport )

I specifically mentioned the visa waiver program above. It isn't new. It dates back to 1986. The mechanism trades individual visas for a commitment by participating carriers (air and sea) to bear the costs of repatriation should such become necessary. Scheduled transport is not relevant; commitment to repatriation by virtue of being a signatory to the Visa Waiver Program Agreement. That is why, for example, it is easy to fly between the Bahamas and FXE in Florida on a private charter (Makers Air is a participating carrier) but not on some--admittedly obscure--scheduled carriers.

Here is the list https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fi...2020200701.pdf . Lots of corporate jets on there which are definitely not scheduled transport.

There is a similar but different program for entering the US at land borders.

[goboatingnow]

I know it applies as you say. I had to give up my B1/B2 and then go through hoops to get it back to arrive by yacht

[valhalla360]

Some folks are focusing on the semantics rather than the practicality.

The captain arriving doesn't care if he's commercial or leisure... if it's repatriation or just onward passage. Captain just cares if he's going to be held responsible if there is a problem and that is often the case.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Captain just cares if he's going to be held responsible if there is a problem and that is often the case.

And THAT is the point I keep trying to make. As long as the person is on the crew list they are the masters/owners responsibility to get out of the country. Just because you don't turn in a crew list doesn't mean there isn't one. C&I know most recreational sailors are hopeless and fill out the paperwork in back. That's why it takes so long.

[FinallyFree]

I'll start by saying I know nothing about marine law. I do know about employment and contract law. It would be my suggestion that you have these things laid out in a contract that stipulated what actions you, or said crew were responsible for taking and under what circumstances one could execute on a termination. I would imagine the governing law for the contract would fall under whatever jurisdiction your vesel is registered.

A bit of a guess but it seems reasonable to me. This is how I would try to handle it at least.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

And THAT is the point I keep trying to make. As long as the person is on the crew list they are the masters/owners responsibility to get out of the country. Just because you don't turn in a crew list doesn't mean there isn't one. C&I know most recreational sailors are hopeless and fill out the paperwork in back. That's why it takes so long.

Crew lists are merely a record of the occupants at the time of arrival or departure.

As I said in the vast majority of cases the yacht has the responsibility only until such time as the occupants are successfully cleared in. ( this could involve onward tickets )

If I sail into France , my responsibility ends after the crew have cleared immigration control for example. I am not responsible for ensuring they sail away with me.

Note a “ master “ is a licensed commercial master mariner ( or extra master mariner) Very few yacht owners are “ masters” yachts have skippers.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Note a “ master “ is a licensed commercial master mariner ( or extra master mariner) Very few yacht owners are “ masters” yachts have skippers.

In general I find self-labeling as captain or master pretentious, but as far as C&I is concerned someone on board is master. See the forms. As far as officials are concerned they want someone to hold accountable. That's it. It has nothing to do with licenses.

You seem quite committed to making a differentiation that doesn't exist and I'm done talking about.

You're responsible for persons carried into a country until you get them out or they are signed off your crew list. That's it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

In general I find self-labeling as captain or master pretentious, but as far as C&I is concerned someone on board is master. See the forms. As far as officials are concerned they want someone to hold accountable. That's it. It has nothing to do with licenses.



You seem quite committed to making a differentiation that doesn't exist and I'm done talking about.



You're responsible for persons carried into a country until you get them out or they are signed off your crew list. That's it.

Your last paragraph is factually incorrect , the crew list is merely a list of current occupants. It’s not a “ crew “ list like on a commercial ship. Many immigration laws require you to draw up abs present a list of occupants of the yacht. This is also required in some cases when departing , equally some immigration authorities require you to notify /approve changes in that list. That has nothing to do with the issue being discussed here



Unless you specifically sign an undertaking like in Fiji , you are only responsible for people clearing into a country under a tourist visa or tourist visa wavier , upto the point of successfully clearing in and being accepted by immigration

A few countries specifically have you sign an undertaking that you remain liable upto the point they depart that country ,with you or other means.

I know this for a fact in the countries I’ve mentioned as in doing deliveries you change crew often much more then leisure crews

Most C&I call you “ captain “ not master.

The situation is exactly the same for airlines and ships with passengers clearing in as tourists.

As I said my specific knowledge consists of EU countries , Scandinavian countries , selected Med and North African countries and Caribbean islands.

In all these cases I never signed any undertaking like the Fijian one. I would be off the opinion that to be contractually bound to be responsible for someone until the exit the country would require my acceptance signature.

All we did was successfully clear in the crew , which in some cases had to have ongoing air tickets. Updated our crew list , cleared out and left. Immigration were always made aware ( by me ) of a change in crew ( list ) and had no problem .

I’ve never run into immigration problems , In my cases immigration were aware we were leaving before the departing ex”crew “ has left the country ( many did a tourist week or two )

I dress appropriately , I carry the correct documentation , don’t complain about the delays or processes , smile and are friendly. The vast majority of immigration officials simply want an easy life and to facilitate you visiting their country.

I’m not advocating not having a “ crew” list , nor ensuring it’s updated etc.

My argument was that leisure yacht “ crew” are not commercial crew and DO NOT benefit from the various international agreements around the temporary entry conditions and repatriation requirements that such commercial crew enjoy.

These arguments smack of the same nonsense that leisure yachts can avail of vat free “ yacht in transit “ rules or that national flag law overrides local law , etc. We are simply tourists not ships crew.

Can you abandon crew , no not before they are successfully cleared in , after that with a few exceptions the crew are in the country legally as tourists. You are not generally obliged to then subsequently remove them from that country. ( if that were the case yachts would be held up for weeks while crew flying out by air jaunt around being tourists )

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

In general I find self-labeling as captain or master pretentious, but as far as C&I is concerned someone on board is master. See the forms. As far as officials are concerned they want someone to hold accountable. That's it. It has nothing to do with licenses.

You seem quite committed to making a differentiation that doesn't exist and I'm done talking about.

You're responsible for persons carried into a country until you get them out or they are signed off your crew list. That's it.

+1

Auspicious! I can verify everything you've said with my own delivery experience - and you certainly have reams more delivery experience than I do!

Thanks muchly for your informative and balanced posts. Especially on this thread where one particular member seems bent on shouting everyone else down. Doesn't make him right.

Fair winds,
LittleWing77