Newbies need Lithium help please.

[Corrigano]

Very helpful thanks Dave!

[Corrigano]

Thanks for sharing your experience John.

My wife & I plan to live aboard permanently, only using marinas very rarely when required. The ultimate aim is to sail as much of the world as we can.

Our Catamaran will be built for launch next year. We will have solar panels generating 1100 amps. Our builder offers an upgrade to Lithium batteries. We liked the idea of the upgrade being done by them. The problem was the cost $19,000 US - just for 2 x 3000 and 1 x 1000 starter Lithium batteries. Looking at various builds on YouTube this appeared to be half the power other live aboard couples had installed at nowhere near that cost. A much larger additional Alternator is offered for $1900 US, but the exact same one is £595 in the UK and is described as very easy to fit.

This is my first post and my objective was to simply get a feel for the general prices people had paid for the systems they have built. I would of course want it to be properly installed by a marine professional and had no intention of doing it myself.

Your post has helped a lot thank you. We are simply information gathering at this point.

Cheers!

[CatNewBee]

Hi there.

LiFe(Y)PO4 batteries are awesome and superior to any FLA, except on availability in different parts of the world. They must not be more expensive than FLA, actually the opposite is true if you consider the charged and discharged energy over the life cycle for the money spend on batteries. They have 10 times higher life expectancy then a FLA, but are available for only 2 times the price of the same capacity as cells.

Even while I have an university degree in electro technology and electronics, it took me a long time to go for it, I played around with AGM, FLA and GEL, and also needed to replace a lot of them over the time. EVERY battery needs proper attention and appropriately programmed charging / discharging gear to get the most out of it.

My personal decission for the gear I chose was:

- reasonable price per capacity
- fully documented and accessible set up, that I can repair myself or at least temporary fix under way
- enough energy for a couple of days without charging
- over-sized gear for high current applications, that stays cool under heavy load
- get rid of explosives on board (propane) and go electric for the galley
- self sufficiency by generating all of the energy and water we use during the summer without the need of any fuel from shore.
- re-using most /all gear that came with the boat (we bought pre-owned)


There is always a risk of an electric fire, even with smaler LA installations, but you can try to extinct it or at least have enough time to leave the vessel to the life raft. Propane gas is poisonous, and it can explode leaving you no time to leave.

All commercial available to me systems then were at least the double of the price (Victron, Mastervolt) for the parts alone, proprietary, and not serviceable by the user. System integrators add their mark up on top and with installation I would have ended up with 3..4 times the price I paid. Another thing was, I wanted to have a brand independend open system, that I can fix on the go with parts I can find locally wherever I am in the world.

So I decided to do it all by myself, from bare cells, separate BMS, separate heavy-duty power switching gear, robust inverter, charger, transfer logic, MPPT controller and solar cells of my choice. I wanted my system resilient, versatile, powerful if necessary to the maximum.

Looking on several installations and what the manufacturers do, the systems are simple, not fully using the potentials of the components, very often insufficient or even faulty.

What I have done was perfect for my use case, and if I see an issue, I can change it easily without support from external electricians somewhere far away.

I am still very sceptical about sealed drop in batteries with internal BMS knowing all the trouble in e-bikes and the like, without information about the used BMS, internal power logic, internal wiring, cells. They may be great, but it is a shot in the dark and they cannot be repaired without damage.

Having bare cells, I can run the battery at any time by overriding the BMS, what gives me power in any situation until the electronics can be fixed, choosing the 1000Ah prismatic cells instead of a battery built from hunderds of small cylindrical gives me the certainty to be able to run really high currents without fear some of the internal wiring may burn. No manufacturer yet uses this large cells in their packages. My cells are dessigned and built for professional high energy applications, like propulsion, big energy storages, busses, trucks, submarines, military.

But again, I know what I am doing and I am aware of the risks. So what fits for me may not be appropriate for you. Having a professional installation from the manufacturer gives you the opportunity of someone to blame if it not works as expected. This would be my advise for anybody not having the electrical background or not willing to learn enough before starting a DIY.

But for those going all the way DIY, there will be no more secrets in their onboard electric system, they will be able to track down most problems and fix them in any environment under way themselves with what ever parts they may find locally.

We are happy with our gear after 2 years of cruising, we live now full time on board and do not regret the conversion at all, our setup would not be possible with FLA.

Btw, you probably mean 100Ah for the start battery, it can be AGM, you barely need it and good spiral cells last for 7 years to a decade if charged properly. No need for LFP there at all. You always can manually override the start battery and use the house bank to start the engine in case the start battery is dead or use the start battery from the second engine.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Hi there.

LiFe(Y)PO4 batteries are awesome and superior to any FLA, except on availability in different parts of the world. They must not be more expensive than FLA, actually the opposite is true if you consider the charged and discharged energy over the life cycle for the money spend on batteries. They have 10 times higher life expectancy then a FLA, but are available for only 2 times the price of the same capacity as cells.

Even while I have an university degree in electro technology and electronics, it took me a long time to go for it, I played around with AGM, FLA and GEL, and also needed to replace a lot of them over the time. EVERY battery needs proper attention and appropriately programmed charging / discharging gear to get the most out of it.

My personal decission for the gear I chose was:

- reasonable price per capacity
- fully documented and accessible set up, that I can repair myself or at least temporary fix under way
- enough energy for a couple of days without charging
- over-sized gear for high current applications, that stays cool under heavy load
- get rid of explosives on board (propane) and go electric for the galley
- self sufficiency by generating all of the energy and water we use during the summer without the need of any fuel from shore.
- re-using most /all gear that came with the boat (we bought pre-owned)


There is always a risk of an electric fire, even with smaler LA installations, but you can try to extinct it or at least have enough time to leave the vessel to the life raft. Propane gas is poisonous, and it can explode leaving you no time to leave.

All commercial available to me systems then were at least the double of the price (Victron, Mastervolt) for the parts alone, proprietary, and not serviceable by the user. System integrators add their mark up on top and with installation I would have ended up with 3..4 times the price I paid. Another thing was, I wanted to have a brand independend open system, that I can fix on the go with parts I can find locally wherever I am in the world.

So I decided to do it all by myself, from bare cells, separate BMS, separate heavy-duty power switching gear, robust inverter, charger, transfer logic, MPPT controller and solar cells of my choice. I wanted my system resilient, versatile, powerful if necessary to the maximum.

Looking on several installations and what the manufacturers do, the systems are simple, not fully using the potentials of the components, very often insufficient or even faulty.

What I have done was perfect for my use case, and if I see an issue, I can change it easily without support from external electricians somewhere far away.

I am still very sceptical about sealed drop in batteries with internal BMS knowing all the trouble in e-bikes and the like, without information about the used BMS, internal power logic, internal wiring, cells. They may be great, but it is a shot in the dark and they cannot be repaired without damage.

Having bare cells, I can run the battery at any time by overriding the BMS, what gives me power in any situation until the electronics can be fixed, choosing the 1000Ah prismatic cells instead of a battery built from hunderds of small cylindrical gives me the certainty to be able to run really high currents without fear some of the internal wiring may burn. No manufacturer yet uses this large cells in their packages. My cells are dessigned and built for professional high energy applications, like propulsion, big energy storages, busses, trucks, submarines, military.

But again, I know what I am doing and I am aware of the risks. So what fits for me may not be appropriate for you. Having a professional installation from the manufacturer gives you the opportunity of someone to blame if it not works as expected. This would be my advise for anybody not having the electrical background or not willing to learn enough before starting a DIY.

But for those going all the way DIY, there will be no more secrets in their onboard electric system, they will be able to track down most problems and fix them in any environment under way themselves with what ever parts they may find locally.

We are happy with our gear after 2 years of cruising, we live now full time on board and do not regret the conversion at all, our setup would not be possible with FLA.

Btw, you probably mean 100Ah for the start battery, it can be AGM, you barely need it and good spiral cells last for 7 years to a decade if charged properly. No need for LFP there at all. You always can manually override the start battery and use the house bank to start the engine in case the start battery is dead or use the start battery from the second engine.

Cracking post and so good to get a realistic aprasal of lithium tech from a knowlegable enthusiast. You are absolutely the sort of person they are ideal for. As you say if you can design and build the cells yourself cost are more acceptable. The only point I would disagree with is the claim of 10x longevity. You really expect to get a service life of 100 to 150 years from a lithium pack? Life expectancy proven, by many examples, of a properly designed and managed FLA setup is 10-15years. I would agree if you said 10x the life of sealed cells whick have a life of less than 5yrs but there is a massive difference between somthing like a rolls 6 or 2v deep cycle FLA and a 12v suposidly deep cycle sealed cells commonly used.

[Corrigano]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Some things... there are a lot of very experienced people on here. So, use their knowledge but use it as just one of your tools to ‘discover’ what is best for your situation.

There is a fella on YouTube who is into educating the unwashed masses about solar power and Lithium technology. It is “ Will Prowse Off Grid Solar Power Channel”. He is infectious. RV and marine are very similar users of solar/Lithium setups. He shows a lot of details in his examinations of batteries and solar. He goes into great depth about connectors, shunts, battery management systems, wiring and blah blah blah.

There is a fella on this website who has a lot of followers to his installation of Lithium on his 40 foot cat. I feel it is a must read if you go Lithium/solar. His background shows he is quite an interesting guy. Go to the drop down menu titled Forums. Go the far right column names Engineering&Systems. Open up the link for Lithium Power Systems. Open up the thread titled Merged LiFePo4 1000 Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley. You won’t be disappointed. He is not the only good author ... but one of the best. He tells you how he did it and why he did that way. Highly detailed with lots of pics. Excellent article.

First thing... be practical. You have started correctly by asking end users. It is kind of new technology and only a small portion of marine end users are on board with it. It is expensive technology. But it has so many pluses to it. Catamarans are sensitive to weight. Lithium is so energy dense compared to lead acid. Can discharge down to 20-30% versus 50-60% for lead acid. Longer life if treated properly. Weighs only 30-40% of lead acid. Can accept a much higher charge input than lead. Weight is evil on trimarans and catamarans.

You may already know this... but the first thing you do when picking an electrical system is figure out what will you be using it for. For example... basics like lighting, navigation, running personal electronics, charging propulsion, etc. What extra things would you like to have like water maker, electric galley, upgraded refrigeration, radar, upgraded displays in different locations for Nav gear. If you are into blogging and you edit for publishing on YouTube it takes a lot of ponies to pull that wagon. So... you design your electrical system around your “projected” needs.

You have lots of real estate for paneling you. Mono hulls are limited by lack of “where to put the darn things”. Personally I wouldn’t buy a new boat. You can save a truck load of money buying a well kept cat. There are hundreds available all over this blue planet. You will not take the hit of huge depreciation over the first 1-2 years. But if you do go ‘New’ my advise would be to get Seawind to set up the solar and Lithium from the start. They are in the business and they know how to do the installs. You just have to figure out the size of your bank you need and get the solar and generators lined up.

And you know there are some legitimate worries about lithium fires. Most of the documentation seems to see problems with unstable banks. But the battery management systems are designed to carefully monitor these situations. We had a terrible tragedy last month off of Ventura California where 34 people burned to death on a dive boat. All the crew escaped. Horrific situation. Paid passengers slept down below decks. No escape available. They think the lithium ion batteries caught on fire. Possibly due to so many personal phones and iPad type devices being charged overnight. It is still speculation and under intense investigation. The fire was so intense that dna had to be used to identify the charred bodies. The real cause may never be known due to tides and intense fire.

Many thanks Alan, I will absolutely take your advice on board. Yes, we will have water maker, sonar and washing machine Cheers!

[Corrigano]

LOL, I’ve just looked for Will Prowse on YouTube. I’ve already watched six or seven of his videos including Electricity for Beginners. I had already subscribed to him. You’re right he’s brilliant, so thanks for pointing me in his direction.

[Jweyndling]

Look as SV Delos vlogs. They did a whole video on choosing and installing lithium batteries plus several follow ups on how their system has performed.

[Corrigano]

Great stuff. I'll take a look.

Thanks Jweyndling!

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Cracking post and so good to get a realistic aprasal of lithium tech from a knowlegable enthusiast. You are absolutely the sort of person they are ideal for. As you say if you can design and build the cells yourself cost are more acceptable. The only point I would disagree with is the claim of 10x longevity. You really expect to get a service life of 100 to 150 years from a lithium pack? Life expectancy proven, by many examples, of a properly designed and managed FLA setup is 10-15years. I would agree if you said 10x the life of sealed cells whick have a life of less than 5yrs but there is a massive difference between somthing like a rolls 6 or 2v deep cycle FLA and a 12v suposidly deep cycle sealed cells commonly used.

... Well, I expect them to last as long as we cruise. But even if not, they just work great, no power sack, quick charge, plenty of energy. You stop thinking about charging and loads. They are like shore power.

[Corrigano]

You’ve sold it to me!

Thank you again CatNewBee for taking the time to help us!

[Phil_c]

Hi,

I own a Seawind 1260 with Lithium batteries - launched March 2018. I went with the Factory fitted Mastervolt batteries - which I have been super pleased with.

My bottom line was - even although I could have saved a few $$$ using alternatives - having a "single throat to choke" was more important - and they did an excellent job setting it all up.

I also added 2 x 125amp Mastervolt Alternators - which charge the batteries really quickly. I added a genset as well - but in hindsight feel that is completly unnecessary with the Lithium batteries and additional alternators.

Feel free to get in touch - I also have a watermaker, washing machine etc.

Phil

[dstraton]

You will love the Seawind 1260; good choice.

We installed lithiums in our Seawind 1160 back in 2012. I never regretted it. Here is a link to the original installation details. Lithium Batteries

There were some changes later, after we were struck by lightning in 2013 and the electronics on the boat were fried.

Here is a Youtube of the sparky explaining the system to me after the repairs and reforms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Eft38ChyJo&t=2s

Lithium is a strange topic; it seems to bring out the desire of people to frighten you and baffle you with complexity. IMHO it is simply superior to lead-acid, especially on a catamaran where weight is so important.

Dave Straton

[alansmith]

Fellas like Roland and Catnewbee... well balanced writing and expression of ideas clearly and expertly drawn out. Man... that is what the Internet should always be. Dissemination of information. I can’t thank either one of you fellas enough for the time taken to respond.

I struggle with it daily. I have a boat in Mexico. I have 2 100 amp/hr batteries. I have a 2200 watt Honda. I have 2 50 watt thin solar panels. It ain’t quite enough battery storage. It is a 30 foot trailer able trimaran. She is sensitive to weight. So I see both of these cases of FLA versus Lithium as correct. I don’t have the pedigree these guys have. The cost and time to switch is nothing to take lightly. But thanks guys... you are both gems for long extended well thought out replies and rebuttals. Bless you.

[mcon12000]

I'm in the process of switching to lithium for the house bank and adding a FLA or Gel for the starting battery. Lots of great advice in this thread and I'll add that this is the future so don't let the negative replies discourage you from picking this battery type.

The $19,000 price is steep vs doing the upgrade yourself maybe get specific about the inverter/charger they use and upgrade the batteries later?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by mcon12000

I'm in the process of switching to lithium for the house bank and adding a FLA or Gel for the starting battery. Lots of great advice in this thread and I'll add that this is the future so don't let the negative replies discourage you from picking this battery type.

The $19,000 price is steep vs doing the upgrade yourself maybe get specific about the inverter/charger they use and upgrade the batteries later?

It all starts with the battery my friend. Inverter and charger almost make no sense if you not have the appropriate battery capacity. You could wreck your FLA battery with a large inverter quickly, while a LFP would not even sweat.

All components must play in the same league.