Noob looking for directions

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by jjcarr1

New to sailing. Thinking about buying a sailboat in the EU for Mediterranean cruising. I'm less worried about how well a boat sails, as I plan to use it as a mobile place to live while I explore Europe. Need to be able to sail solo when needed. Any input is appreciated as I'm starting from zero when it comes to personal sailboats.

Would consider starting cheap, until I get more familiar and determine my needs, or spending more if it's better in the long run. Price range under $200k-ish if I finance, under $80k if I pay cash.

My last boat was a wee bit of a handful (USS Wisconsin, FM Division) so I'm looking for something a little bit smaller. Just for attention here's a pic I took of a buddy of mine while we were on active duty, gives you some perspective of the scale of the Wiskey.

I have been doing the same thing with a 36 foot Nauticat for years sailing up and down the east coast of the US.
My beloved Nauticat Finlandia is now for sale. If you are interested, you may PM me.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[gulfislandfred]

If your eventual goal is to tour Europe, get a boat that will be relatively easy to lower the mast, so you can travel in the canals.
I have friends who circumnavigated. When asked about the best part of the four year journey,they said the Pacific Islands were great, but the canals of France were the best. That was a 36 foot Cape George cutter, not super easy to lower the mast, but there are facilities available.
They were allowed to tie up at an unused dock in Paris, attached to a warehouse with a locked gate, and a night watchman to let them in and out at night!

[MoonShadow777]

email me at neil.simpson@orange.fr

[MoonShadow777]

Anori is a Southerly 115 mk1 built in 1984. Origially swing-keel, she has been converted to fixed keel for the Mediterranean (easily reversible with only minor surgery). Bought by me in Greece in 2015, she is now French registered and in the port of Sete near Montpellier in Southern France.
With 2 steering positions Anori has been extensively modified for single-handed sailing - (perfect for 1 or 2 ; great for 4 ; doable for 6)
All lines (except genoa hallyard) led to the centre cockpit.
6 cockpit winches (2 self-tailing)
“Winchright” cordless electric winch handle
Electric windlass (with remote)
“Hydrovane” wind vane which can link to a “Raymarine” ST1000 Plus with a cordless remote (Steer to the wind or to the compass)
Dependable, economical Bukh DV36 RME (lifeboat engine).
Simrad NSS evo2 plotter/radar & depth gauge protected & visible from both steering positions.
Diesel heating (aft cabin & salon)
Solar panels, mast-steps
etc. etc.
I have really enjoyed sailing her but it’s time to move on.
neil.simpson@orange.fr

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by jjcarr1

New to sailing. Thinking about buying a sailboat in the EU for Mediterranean cruising. I'm less worried about how well a boat sails, as I plan to use it as a mobile place to live while I explore Europe. Need to be able to sail solo when needed. Any input is appreciated as I'm starting from zero when it comes to personal sailboats.

Would consider starting cheap, until I get more familiar and determine my needs, or spending more if it's better in the long run. Price range under $200k-ish if I finance, under $80k if I pay cash.

My last boat was a wee bit of a handful (USS Wisconsin, FM Division) so I'm looking for something a little bit smaller. Just for attention here's a pic I took of a buddy of mine while we were on active duty, gives you some perspective of the scale of the Wiskey.

Since most comments come from Americans, her is my comment from Europe. We are living full time aboard sincce several years and are actually on the Canary islands… (we did the atlantic circuit 6 years ago, to south amarica, caribbean adn back to Europe)
1. The Med may seem a dream destination BUT : extremely strong winds (Tramontana, Mistral, Meltemi, Bora, …) can pick up unanounced in half an hour. Here in Europe we know that in the Med most sailboats have new sails and worn out motor.
2. For a medium sized 40ft boat, cheap marinas are about 150€/night, expensive ones are above 300€/night. So, for most of us, the only possibility as live aboards is to stay on anchor ALL the time, even with 40 to 50 knots of wind. You can check this on the Navily app
3. For 40k€ you will find an old derelict 36 foot boat. Nowhere near to a Nauticat. Even a very very very old Nauticat will go above 100k€
4. For the believers in “strong old boats”. okay, buy the boat and spend a lot of money on maintenance… we are living on a 2010 Beneteau Oceanis 43 since about 7 years. Our yearly boat budget is between 5000 and 6000 € and that is full insurance included. The boat is insured for 145k€. The older the boat the higher will be your maintenance costs.
5. Winter is NOT warm in most of the Med. so you will need a boat with good heating. Luckily, most EU boats are equipped, however not all of the boats in the Med.
6. Be very carefull with VAT status ! Lots of ex-charter boats are sold VAT not paid ! And yes, if you stay in the Med, you will have to pay the VAT. You could try to not pay, but if you get caught fines are huge

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by gulfislandfred

If your eventual goal is to tour Europe, get a boat that will be relatively easy to lower the mast, so you can travel in the canals.
I have friends who circumnavigated. When asked about the best part of the four year journey,they said the Pacific Islands were great, but the canals of France were the best. That was a 36 foot Cape George cutter, not super easy to lower the mast, but there are facilities available.
They were allowed to tie up at an unused dock in Paris, attached to a warehouse with a locked gate, and a night watchman to let them in and out at night!

The channels in France are not very well maintained these last years. You should buy a boat with less than 1,65 meter draught and take into account that depending on the season some channels are not useable due to algae growth which will block your propellor and cooling of your motor. And yes of course, you will be on motor all the time.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Skywola

.......do not give a rip about how fast it is, because I am retired, so I have no deadlines. ......

Bruce Van Sant, in his book

The Gentleman's Guide to Passages South: The Thornless Path to Windward


discusses these old slow boats and how in moderate to heavy seas they will actually lose distance on their course because they simply cannot climb to weather and while it has been years since I read it, I think he mentioned they are not out sailing a lot for this reason

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Marinas only care about liability. If you lose your boat that is on you. If you damage someone elses boat of the marina they want you to be covered. Liability policies usually have provisions for hulk removal and fuel/oil spillage cleanup which is the big cost for a marina if your boat sinks at its moorings.

Note some marinas don't care at all but those that care are good with liability only. I have never known a marina which wanted full coverage.

As EU citizen: NOT TRUE ! True: most of the marinas only require third liability, but more and more require full insurance

[EricGrab]

Originally Posted by jjcarr1

Would consider starting cheap, until I get more familiar and determine my needs, or spending more if it's better in the long run. Price range under $200k-ish if I finance, under $80k if I pay cash.

There is a huge spectrum of boats, and a huge spectrum of what would be considered a success living aboard a boat. A budget is crucial since it fundamentally constrains the situation.

Also to clarify your budget is money, and also your time. In many ways boating is an equation of both time and money, and there is perhaps a threshold that if you do not have enough of either, you will not meet your personal success story.

I am going to give a bit of different advice than in this thread. Consider going to a boat show and look at brand new boats. Also spend time on boating supply web sites such Defender.com, or Fisheries Supply, or even West Marine. Look at what various parts and items. Find a boat yard site and check on rates. Overall this will give you a baseline on what things cost, and perhaps sets you on a path on avoiding wasting time on either too cheap or too expensive.

Of course new items are more expensive. However think of less on cost and more for service lifetime. Just about everything on the boat has a timer ticking down. It is hours used, or calendar time, or some combination of both. New = 100% life and known starting state. Used = some variable percentage. Of course new items need to be tested, but at least if there is a problem there is usually some way to get it resolved.

There is a fairly good market on boats, meaning price usually indicates value. So if you wonder how a $40k boat can be the same as a $400k boat, the answer is they generally cannot. The 40k boat might fit a certain person's expectations, but there are going to be trade offs vs. the higher price one.

I knew a person who bought a used boat for what they considered an amazingly good price. Their rationale for buying the boat was the boat just made a the trip from Vancouver to San Diego. It must be in great shape! The reality is the boat used the last of its life to barely make it, and subsequently on the next trip it had critical failures on its sails, anchoring gear, and engine.

The bottom line is you might not have enough of a budget (time and money) for your vision. That said, boating can be an amazing lifestyle, and has its unique rewards and challenges.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

As EU citizen: NOT TRUE ! True: most of the marinas only require third liability, but more and more require full insurance

Oof. Good correction. I wonder why? Maybe just a backhanded way to keep the riff raff out?

[jjcarr1]

Just got back from traveling. Tons of good info. I'm not looking to buy the boat right now. Definitely need to take sailing courses and tour some marinas first, boat shows etc... The French canals idea really seems ideal. My goal with the boat is to explore Europe, and if I can get inland, all the better, so I'll research that more. That should create significant size/draft limitations.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Statistical

36 is a lot of boat to handle solo with no (or minimal) experience. 45 is a whole lot of boat.

Keep in mind boat lengths can be deceptive. A 45 foot boat isn't a bit larger it is 50% higher displacement of a 36 foot boat which is 50% higher than a 30 foot one. To put numbers on it for medium displacement boats 30 foot is ballpark 4 tons, 36 foot ("only 20% longer) is 6 tons, and a 45 foot around 10 tons.

As boats get bigger the ability for you solo handing to fix things if they get out of hand goes down. Also the mass of your boat means the level of damage you can cause to other people's very expensive boats goes up.

If you do look for boats 36-45 foot I would recommend some experience on boats that size maybe a docking course.

Just go get some experience on any keel boat. Learn to sail, race if you can. Lessons are not that great.

Frankly I started out with a c&c34. I went to a 38 footer, then to a 51 foot performance cruiser. They all sail exactly the same except the 51 has a staysail an running backs. It is all about you preparation. Yes tasks that could be done by hand on the 34 can not be done on the 50 so you need a winch handle, or some kind of wincher apparatus.

Are they bigger and heavier? Yes, so practice stopping in the marina or around any stationary mark. Move it around a marina slow. But if you haver turn around in a small space ( spin) well that requires short aggressive bits of throttle and rudder..

Know your boat know your boats performance characteristings


2 people beside me have refit a 51 footer They are not large muscular people They will manage. Another couple have a 41. They are not young. At least 70, they run a 41 mono hull.



If buying again I would look at my price point and pick the most comfortable and fastest boat I could for that money in the best shape. If it is in really good shape pay that extra money. What is the cost of a suite of sails. Mine is like 40-50k and they are heavy dacron. Are the instruments newish


When you test sail it will the engine run up all the way to red line under power moving through the water. If not it is over propped or the diesel has problem. Either one ill destroy the engine in the long haul.