Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

[rossdv8]

Three thoughts immediately came to mind.


1) Middle of the night
2) A 'plank'
3) Walking


(The sailors' hornpipe . .)

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by rossdv8

Three thoughts immediately came to mind.


1) Middle of the night
2) A 'plank'
3) Walking


(The sailors' hornpipe . .)

An evil dude. Truly evil.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by rossdv8

Three thoughts immediately came to mind.


1) Middle of the night
2) A 'plank'
3) Walking


(The sailors' hornpipe . .)

Hey, if it worked for Robert Wagner...

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

You can put whatever you want in your contract with the crew members. But that doesn't change the fact that the authorities will expect the Ship's Master to present proof of outbound transport for the missing crew member.

If it isn't obvious, the Captain is NOT required to BUY the ticket, just show it exists. If the crew member skips out and doesn't (or can't) pay for their ticket, the Captain can wave his contract around all he wants, the immigration authorities will not care. Not their problem.

All they want is to be sure than somebody is not left behind without the resources to leave. Then it DOES become their problem, and they will not be happy.

This.

The vessel is responsible for repatriation. The party that bears the actual cost of repatriation is a contractual matter. A paid crew member quitting, or being fired for cause, will be paying his way home out of any wages due, if he does not already have a ticket. Fired or laid off not for cause? End of contract? Next destination a port not listed in the articles? Crewman injured or too ill to continue the voyage? Generally the boat should be responsible for repatriation costs. I suggest I suggest any yacht with non-family crew aboard draw up articles of agreement. Excluded ports or countries or waters should be clearly spelled out. Return ticket, or repatriation deposit, should be required for the possibility of the unpaid crew member jumping ship in a foreign port. If not, you, the yacht owner, could be stuck with it, unfairly but legally. Most any country will look to YOU and say, you brought him in, you take him out, or send him somewhere else, and we don't care how you do it or how much it costs you, he is your responsibility, and you cannot clear out until we clear up this matter.

[davil]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

This.

The vessel is responsible for repatriation. The party that bears the actual cost of repatriation is a contractual matter. A paid crew member quitting, or being fired for cause, will be paying his way home out of any wages due, if he does not already have a ticket. Fired or laid off not for cause? End of contract? Next destination a port not listed in the articles? Crewman injured or too ill to continue the voyage? Generally the boat should be responsible for repatriation costs. I suggest I suggest any yacht with non-family crew aboard draw up articles of agreement. Excluded ports or countries or waters should be clearly spelled out. Return ticket, or repatriation deposit, should be required for the possibility of the unpaid crew member jumping ship in a foreign port. If not, you, the yacht owner, could be stuck with it, unfairly but legally. Most any country will look to YOU and say, you brought him in, you take him out, or send him somewhere else, and we don't care how you do it or how much it costs you, he is your responsibility, and you cannot clear out until we clear up this matter.

==================================

does it matter the definition of crew vs guest?

wondering

looking for "crew" the only difference I make is paid vs volunteer, on the paid status have no problems understanding the status, however when looking at "volunteer" started to wonder if I should call them"guest".?

I do carry liability insurance and if volunteer I spell out very clearly what expenses if any in the "volunteer crew" agreement.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by davil

==================================



does it matter the definition of crew vs guest?



wondering .

From a country's customs and immigration perspective, I doubt it makes any difference. As someone upthread said, there may be large differences in the contractual obligations and how the vessel owner can recover repatriation costs.

But it begs an interesting question. I'm in cruiseport marina in Ensenada. As I write, I'm 200 yards from the Carnival Miracle that disgorged a couple thousand passengers and likely dozens of crew for the day. Cruise ships are clear: if you're not aboard, they leave without you. I wonder what arrangements they have with local officials? I've heard of late passengers paying dearly to meet a ship at its next port, but what happens if someone just leaves and never comes back?

[rxcsailnet]

I faced this situation during a transatlantic crossing with a paid captain. I had hired him because my insurance company required that 2 people on board have previous experience with this crossing. The paid captain and his girlfriend met their qualifications.

He was a good seaman, but not a good manager. He was a professional delivery captain, and used this trip to go to the EU to meet the family of his girlfriend - no problem with that. However, we suffered a serious steering casualty outside Bermuda that took 3 weeks to resolve, and he had another charter engagement that he was in anger of missing. As a result, he did not take the advice of Herb, the Canadian weather forecaster, to avoid heavy weather coming out of the US. He said the boat could take it, and there was no reason to divert to the better weather to the south, which would slow us down.

5 storms later, after surviving maximum winds of 59 kts, with sustained winds above 50 kts and 20 ft seas for 3-5 days at a time, we arrived in the Azores.

I did a rig check and found that 4 of the 12 screws holding the radar on to the mast were missing. Probably because of the pounding from the weather. When he suggested the next route to the EU, which involved heading north right where the weather people were predicting more lows with bad weather, I had to make a decision about what to do about him.

My contract required me to pay for return flights back to the US for both him and his girlfriend, and I was prepared to set him ashore in the Azores and send them back home, if he persisted in his plans to beat up the boat. But that would have left me taking over as captain, and one other person who did not meet the insurance requirements, to get the boat to the EU. Not good.

So I had a private heart-to-heart with him. I explained that the insurance company had required hiring a professional captain, plus a rigging inspection, plus a working method of receiving weather info. I had done all of that, and we were receiving weather info from Herb, as well as the weather faxes from the US and the EU.

I told him that if something weather-related happened, the insurance company would ask me (1) Did I have the equipment to receive the weather forecasts?; (2) Did I understand what they said?; (3) Could we have avoided the weather?; and finally Why did we insist on sailing into weather we knew about and could avoid? And when I told them that the hired captain thought that "the boat could take it", they would wash their hands of me and direct me to seeking redress from the captain.

I told him that I did not want any more storms, or 20 ft waves, if they could be avoided. He thought for a minute, and agreed to take the "longer, more gentle" course, and we arrived in the EU intact. He left immediately when we landed, with full payments and paid (by me) tickets back to the USA.

I shipped the boat back to the US 6 years later, because I could not find the right people to help me bring it back.

Oh, and his girlfriend was a real piece of work. She did not like Americans, and harassed the 4th member of the crew quite seriously. An expensive major piece of galley equipment also disappeared when they left (she had done the cooking during the trip).

[Snore]

As to crew- NO ONE, including owners, is on one of my boats without a crew agreement contract/form. The document spells out the watch schedule, standing orders, no drug policy, no weapon policy, my right to inspect your gear, obtains your next of kin, requires you to list any medications you are taking, it states my right to put you ashore (with airfare home), and a bunch of other items.

In the 21st century you would have to be rather foolish to take on crew without having some type of contract. The contract also provides "plausible deniability" if they are found to have drugs, etc.

As to the delivery captain- I have to wonder if he got the job because he was really cheap.

[rxcsailnet]

"As to the delivery captain- I have to wonder if he got the job because he was really cheap."

No, he was not cheap. His fee was comparable to other captains I talked to. He was local, so that I could interview him before signing him on. Having his girlfriend was a "freebie", though, because she allowed for a much better watch schedule.

It seemed like a good idea, at the time.

And the cost to ship the boat back to the US was almost exactly the same as hiring a skipper, but without paying for the airfare, the food for everyone, and the damage that all the storms did to the boat, some of which were not discovered until 6 years later. Delivery skippers are concerned about one thing - getting the boat delivered ASAP - as long as the boat is not a wreck and it gets there on its own bottom, they consider their job done. Fuel and repairs along the way are not their concerns.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

..... Delivery skippers are concerned about one thing - getting the boat delivered ASAP - as long as the boat is not a wreck and it gets there on its own bottom, they consider their job done. Fuel and repairs along the way are not their concerns.

I was a full time delivery skipper for about 5 years and stayed very busy - around 225 delivery days per year. Like most professional delivery skippers, my goal was to turnover a boat in better condition than when it left. I kept boats moving, often non-stop from Southern California to PNW, over 1000nms. These were strong trawlers capable of heavy seas but as you found, beautiful interiors are a bit more fragile. Launching a soda can from a fridge onto a beautiful teak and holly floor, breaking a microwave door, and scratching a mirror finish table can cost hundreds of dollars to repair.

Clients always understand that the delivery ahead of theirs may run into delays and schedules are best efforts. They want their boat delivered at a reasonable and safe pace too.

Sounds like you bumped into a skipper who had a hard schedule to keep for personal reasons. Too bad.

[Snore]

Sorry---I can't let this go!

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

And the cost to ship the boat back to the US was almost exactly the same as hiring a skipper, but without paying for the airfare, the food for everyone, and the damage that all the storms did to the boat, some of which were not discovered until 6 years later.

Right now- I am speaking to a new owner about moving a boat from Spain to the Caribbean. The cost to ship it was $60K. I am way less!

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

and the damage that all the storms did to the boat, some of which were not discovered until 6 years later.

All the better guys use, and listen to, routers. The top shelf ones have their own satellite systems.

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

Delivery skippers are concerned about one thing - getting the boat delivered ASAP - as long as the boat is not a wreck and it gets there on its own bottom, they consider their job done. Fuel and repairs along the way are not their concerns

Once again- that is what low bidders do. I am never lowest. But, then again, I don't break boats. My contract gives me the authority to reroute as I see best to protect crew and vessel.


I am genuinely sorry that you had a bad experience. There are many of us who take our craft very seriously. Making all encompassing statements about delivery captains is wrong.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

"As to the delivery captain- I have to wonder if he got the job because he was really cheap."

No, he was not cheap. His fee was comparable to other captains I talked to. He was local, so that I could interview him before signing him on. Having his girlfriend was a "freebie", though, because she allowed for a much better watch schedule.

It seemed like a good idea, at the time.

And the cost to ship the boat back to the US was almost exactly the same as hiring a skipper, but without paying for the airfare, the food for everyone, and the damage that all the storms did to the boat, some of which were not discovered until 6 years later. Delivery skippers are concerned about one thing - getting the boat delivered ASAP - as long as the boat is not a wreck and it gets there on its own bottom, they consider their job done. Fuel and repairs along the way are not their concerns.

Just wondering... did he have a USCG license? Recklessly endangering the vessel and crew is taken somewhat seriously by the CG. Doesn't matter now, I suppose, but holding a license does make one somewhat more accountable, with more to lose. From your account, it does appear that you got a bad skipper there, with poor judgement and confused priorities.

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by Snore

Sorry---I can't let this go!



Right now- I am speaking to a new owner about moving a boat from Spain to the Caribbean. The cost to ship it was $60K. I am way less!

I think the previous poster was talking about the total cost of sailing, including skipper and crew costs, provisions, fuel, repairs, wear and tear, etc.

I’d be very surprised if (in your example) it added up to $60K but there’s more than just the paid skipper fees.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

I think the previous poster was talking about the total cost of sailing, including skipper and crew costs, provisions, fuel, repairs, wear and tear, etc.

I’d be very surprised if (in your example) it added up to $60K but there’s more than just the paid skipper fees.

LOL!!! A transat takes about a month, I don’t make $60k a month.

All in, the cost to bring a boat across with my crew is significantly less than the cost of shipping.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by davil

==================================

does it matter the definition of crew vs guest?

wondering

looking for "crew" the only difference I make is paid vs volunteer, on the paid status have no problems understanding the status, however when looking at "volunteer" started to wonder if I should call them"guest".?

I do carry liability insurance and if volunteer I spell out very clearly what expenses if any in the "volunteer crew" agreement.

When you check into a country there are only four possible categories of people onboard: Owner, Master, Crew, Passenger.

Passengers paid for passage, and can only be carried on registered passenger vessels. You are (almost certainly) not a registered passenger vessel, so you have no passengers.

If you are not the Master (“Captain”) or the Owner, then you are Crew. End of story.

Owner and Master can be the same individual, or not. Every ship must have a Master, although not every ship is required to have an owner aboard, or crew.

There are no guests.
There is no distinction for Paid or Unpaid crew.
There are no “Volunteers”.

You can treat people anyway you want, call them whatever you want, and make whatever distinctions you care to. The above categories are what the immigration authorities WILL use and you have to make everybody fit into one of those boxes. That pretty much makes everybody “crew” and as Captain and/or owner, you have responsibilities around those crew members.

None of this has anything to do what whatever contract you might have with your “crew.” the local Immigration authorities will not enforce your contract for you.

If you are sailing inside one country, and not dealing with immigration, other rules might apply.