Plastic pollution in our seas

[transmitterdan]

When will people learn? Companies don’t pay taxes. They collect taxes from consumers. The public pays any and all taxes.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The issue of plastics in toothpaste and shampoos to make them look more appealing, as well as plastic coffee stir sticks is a consumer issue.

If consumers quit buying those products then the manufacturers would shift gears very quickly.

The truth is that people like their toothpaste and shampoo to be pearly looking and they buy plastic stir sticks because rejuvenated want them.

It’s up to the consumers to make the manufactures change.

That is such a blinkered viewpoint. And it absolves industry of ANY responsibility for the choices they make, even though they have much better information and leverage. Consumers might be attracted to a pearly-white product; I don't know any consumer who said "I want plastic beads in my toothpaste and my shampoo". It's not mentioned ANYWHERE on the ingredients or packaging either. There's easy alternatives to plastic stir sticks and many other single-use plastics.

In this era of rampant misinformation, do you really think that every consumer has been given all the relevant information to make ecologically-responsible decisions?

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

When will people learn? Companies don’t pay taxes. They collect taxes from consumers. The public pays any and all taxes.

Cost is cost. If the cost of undesirable behaviour is more than that of desirable behaviour, guess what will happen?

You already pay significant taxes for waste handling. If there's less waste generated, there could be a tax savings there.

Anyway, paying a realistic price is not taxation. And not every option is a tax. As per a64:

However what may work is a rebate or whatever it’s called on each item, turn it in and you get cash back. That is why you see people walking on the side of the road picking up cans, for cash.

Put a bounty of X amount of money for clean plastic turned in, maybe by weight or maybe by each piece, and I bet you would find most of it being turned in.

As a kid every kid collected Coke bottles, nobody threw one away or broke one

See? you do get it. Something up front, like a deposit, that encourages the desired behaviour.

[Mike OReilly]

The over-packaging problem, which then creates more waste that is managed by the public purse, is a classic example of how businesses externalize a cost so they can reap greater revenue.

In the not so distant past much of the packaging that is now deemed necessary simply did not exist. Reusable beverage containers were the norm, and your screws, USB sticks, and zucchini were not delivered to consumers all bubble-wrapped and hermetically sealed. These are choices, some of which appeal to consumers, but also appeal to the bottom lines of retailers, wholesalers and manufacturers.

Of course taxes are ultimately paid by consumers -- everything is. Higher taxes increase the cost of an item, which may then alter consumer and manufacturer behaviour. It is a market message that operates throughout the system, and is a tried and tested method of altering behaviour.

[a64pilot]

What you don’t get is that any tax you impose on any company, just gets passed along, but the real issue is that tax will be spent by politicians however they choose, and not for the purpose it was taxed for.
Tobacco tax as an example, what is it used for? How about the tax on alcohol?
Georgia used a large fraction of its tobacco settlement money to improve its rural airport infrastructure for example.
Do you really think your so much smarter than the average consumer?
No, they either know that the pearly stuffing their shampoo is plastic or more likely they just don’t care. You and I are the average consumer, we aren’t especially smart. and everyone else isn’t especially stupid either.
But just for a second, assume they don’t know, well educate them, that’s easy, write an article for your local paper, or stand on a street corner passing out pamphlets, might even get on the local news.

But what you are suggesting with this cherry pick taxes is nuts. Why is it nuts? Because where would it stop? Soft drinks cause obesity, tax them, so does fast food, I know tax it too. We need a sugar tax, and a fat tax, and, a cholesterol tax, and a gluten tax too.
All that stuff that you buy that it says causes cancer in the State of California, it needs a special tax.
Milk? You know cows fart, so a milk tax is needed, and a tax for every cow. Then tax the cow food, the fuel in the vehicles that delivers the milk, tax the vehicles to pay for their disposal. And every item that goes into it.
But something I heard from someone whom I respect when it comes to money and the world financial situation is that you had better be awful careful with all these taxes, it’s very possible and not at all unlikely that they could lead to an economic collapse, and I’d just as soon skip that.

[S/V Adeline]

Tobacco tax has always been a pet peeve of mine since the days when I had retail stores. It exemplifies the corruption in the U.S. govt better than any other issue.
It *was* illegal to impose unfair or fraudulent taxes upon the public, and items could only be taxed once.
Gas, Cigarettes, Oil, those are the big three where taxes have already been included in the price. Cigarettes especially (over $10 in the last decade) are being taxed at the government level, have paid tax stamps on the package (state, city, sometimes county) proving taxes have been paid, and another tax at the point of sale taxing the price which includes tax already.
Seems I read somewhere that unfair tax on tea caused a stir once, now it's ok to tax tax...

Other than that, the last tax imposed on a carton was $4, not counting previous increases.

Where is that tax money going??

[Mike OReilly]

Perhaps it depends on which government one is looking at and dealing with. Not all governments are as corrupt as you seem to believe, and not all taxes are a bad thing. And just because one tax is introduced does not require that EVERYTHING be taxed. It is possible to find a reasonable middle ground.

Regardless, I wasn't really trying to get into any big philosophical discussion about the nature of taxation. I was simply pointing out that taxes clearly do send market messages, and can certainly be used to alter behaviour.

BTW, in Canada so-called sin taxes go into provincial coffers which help pay of little things like healthcare and education. So yes, tobacco, alcohol and now marijuana taxes are a good thing. And they also have been used to alter behaviour.

[S/V Adeline]

I prefer wooden stir sticks for *my* coffee, as long as they are not dyed. As a retailer who sold fresh coffee, the customers would sort through looking for a straight one (humidity in the south will warp them) and there was excessive waste.
When I placed wooden and plastic side by side, waste (un-used) was practically eliminated but wooden was seldom used.
It's a consumer mentality issue. The same folks who are happy with a curved spoon at home had to have a perfectly straight stir tool out in public.
As a species humans are strange, at best.

[a64pilot]

Curious do you really believe that taxing cigarettes and alcohol has changed behavior?
I’m not asking you to prove it, that’s silly. But what do you think the change was?
Smoking is way down, and that’s not due to tax or vaping in my opinion, just it started to fall out of fashion and I think the younger generations saw it as something old people did.

I don’t know about drinking, I believe it’s as prevelant as it’s always been?

A quick looks it seems alcohol consumption may have increased.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325135.php#1
Seems also in the US? I haven’t read these, I just found them.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasp.../#29f9d3bc66bc

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I prefer wooden stir sticks for *my* coffee, as long as they are not dyed. As a retailer who sold fresh coffee, the customers would sort through looking for a straight one (humidity in the south will warp them) and there was excessive waste.
When I placed wooden and plastic side by side, waste (un-used) was practically eliminated but wooden was seldom used.
It's a consumer mentality issue. The same folks who are happy with a curved spoon at home had to have a perfectly straight stir tool out in public.
As a species humans are strange, at best.

So you serve them with the Coffee?
I know many have taken to doing so with condiments as if they are put out, some I guess seem to fill their pockets

[S/V Adeline]

Coffee was offered as a serve yourself station located beside the cash registers. I suppose the location prevented many from stuffing pockets.
My remarks are based solely on observation and stocking the products involved.
People tend to use multiple plastic straw stirrers held together, as it works faster (more waste/cost)
When confronting customers throwing away un-used wooden sticks they usually responded by saying bent stick wont stir in the corners...

People are strange

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

When will people learn? Companies don’t pay taxes. They collect taxes from consumers. The public pays any and all taxes.

You have that right. Where else would a co. get the money. Owners or stock holders aren't in it to for a lose.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Curious do you really believe that taxing cigarettes and alcohol has changed behavior?
I’m not asking you to prove it, that’s silly. But what do you think the change was?

Actually, in the case of tobacco use it has been well studied. I'm happy to "prove it" if you like.

Taxes simply make a product more costly. You seem to be suggesting people's purchases are not influenced by the price of things. I don't agree -- nor do most economists.

The impact of taxes aimed at addictive products like tobacco and alcohol are more complex because, well, we're dealing with additions. But the literature is thick and clear: sin taxes do work by raising the price of the product.

If you read your MNT article it suggests that affluence is the driver of the global increase in alcohol use. It notes that in most developed countries the numbers are static, or are declining. So I'm not sure how this has any relevance to taxation impacts.

[a64pilot]

I could maybe see pricing tobacco out of its being affordable. But if you look, many homeless are smoking.
I’ve often wondered about that, as a pack of cigarettes I believe cost more than a GOOD meal, and likely more than it cost to eat if you are frugal and buy food.
Some how people that want to smoke find a way, it is an addiction of course. Many years ago I realized I was addicted when I was scrambling for change in the house trying to come up with enough to buy a pack. Years ago I was in Atlanta in an obviously not nice neighborhood, the gas station was selling cigarettes for $1 a piece, I had not seen that before.

I would be willing to bet that is there was a study done, you would find the poorer on average people were, the higher the incidence of smoking.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What you don’t get is that any tax you impose on any company, just gets passed along, but the real issue is that tax will be spent by politicians however they choose, and not for the purpose it was taxed for.

Of course I get that taxes at the industry level get passed along.. And also I get that you have no faith in government, yet big industry is innocent and guileless as a lamb...

Do you really think your so much smarter than the average consumer?

Well... several years close to marketing, several decades on the planet... you pick stuff up. Do you know more about aeroplanes than the average consumer?

No, they either know that the pearly stuff [in] their shampoo is plastic or more likely they just don’t care. You and I are the average consumer, we aren’t especially smart. and everyone else isn’t especially stupid either.


But just for a second, assume they don’t know, well educate them, that’s easy, write an article for your local paper, or stand on a street corner passing out pamphlets, might even get on the local news.

So it's MY fault (as in ME the average consumer), and not industry's that there's plastic beads in toothpaste? And MY responsibility to rally other consumers to oppose this... Riiight.

But what you are suggesting with this cherry pick taxes is nuts. Why is it nuts? Because where would it stop? Soft drinks cause obesity, tax them, so does fast food, I know tax it too. We need a sugar tax, and a fat tax, and, a cholesterol tax, and a gluten tax too.



All that stuff that you buy that it says causes cancer in the State of California, it needs a special tax.


Milk? You know cows fart, so a milk tax is needed, and a tax for every cow. Then tax the cow food, the fuel in the vehicles that delivers the milk, tax the vehicles to pay for their disposal. And every item that goes into it.

Having fun? I get it - you don't like taxes or similar imposed costs to change behaviour. Despite most economists agreeing that in the case of reducing carbon emissions, carbon pricing, cap and trade, or a carbon tax would be a sensible approach.


But c'mon, you've suggested RATIONING. You'd prefer that to a carbon tax, seriously? How is that less draconian?

something I heard from someone whom I respect when it comes to money and the world financial situation is that you had better be awful careful with all these taxes, it’s very possible and not at all unlikely that they could lead to an economic collapse, and I’d just as soon skip that.

If they're referring to a carbon tax, or raising the currently low price of oil and gas... I'd agree that it carries risks. Cheap fossil-fuel energy has been a crutch that props up a few countries and has kept them from fixing some serious economic structural issues.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I could maybe see pricing tobacco out of its being affordable. But if you look, many homeless are smoking.
I’ve often wondered about that, as a pack of cigarettes I believe cost more than a GOOD meal, and likely more than it cost to eat if you are frugal and buy food.
Some how people that want to smoke find a way, it is an addiction of course. Many years ago I realized I was addicted when I was scrambling for change in the house trying to come up with enough to buy a pack. Years ago I was in Atlanta in an obviously not nice neighborhood, the gas station was selling cigarettes for $1 a piece, I had not seen that before.

I would be willing to bet that is there was a study done, you would find the poorer on average people were, the higher the incidence of smoking.

I am afraid increasing Tobacco prices wouldn't do a thing. Introduce them to some stupid old bastard with COPD like me.