Plastic pollution in our seas

[Mike OReilly]

This is what makes addiction so insidious and damaging. I recall reading rat studies where addicted animals will ignore their children, and even forego food, in favour of feeding their addiction.

I used to work as a casino blackjack dealer. It was easy to spot the gambling addicts. And all too often they were also people clearly on the lower end of the economic spectrum.

And your intuition is correct regarding lower income and higher levels of addition. Here again the literature is thick. Some of the reasons seem to revolve around the need for escape, intertwined with mental health problems and lack of education, along with simply fewer life options. Again, it's a complex puzzle.

A more direct example might be gas prices vs miles driven. Again, the influence of price is pretty clear. Here's just one reference:

https://247wallst.com/energy-economy...s-prices-rise/

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I am afraid increasing Tobacco prices wouldn't do a thing. Introduce them to some stupid old bastard with COPD like me.

My Mother died of Emphysema and COPD, and smoked until it wasn’t physically possible for her to.

[a64pilot]

I believe in fuel costs will have people driving less, and dumping the SUV’s like hot cakes, cause I’ve seen it several times in my life.
But people will do things considered insane to feed an addiction.
It’s interesting though how people can become accustomed to $75 dollar fill ups.
No too many years ago I had to reset the fuel pump to finish filling my truck, most had a $100 limit and wouldn’t pump more. It held I think 34 gls.

It’s not hard at all to show how our Prius has saved us in fuel alone over $40,000, but people still want those SUV’s as a status symbol. It’s worth it to them.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That is such a blinkered viewpoint. And it absolves industry of ANY responsibility for the choices they make, even though they have much better information and leverage. Consumers might be attracted to a pearly-white product; I don't know any consumer who said "I want plastic beads in my toothpaste and my shampoo". It's not mentioned ANYWHERE on the ingredients or packaging either. There's easy alternatives to plastic stir sticks and many other single-use plastics.

In this era of rampant misinformation, do you really think that every consumer has been given all the relevant information to make ecologically-responsible decisions? ....

Indeed. It's called asymmetric information.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I believe in fuel costs will have people driving less, and dumping the SUV’s like hot cakes, cause I’ve seen it several times in my life.
But people will do things considered insane to feed an addiction.
It’s interesting though how people can become accustomed to $75 dollar fill ups.
No too many years ago I had to reset the fuel pump to finish filling my truck, most had a $100 limit and wouldn’t pump more. It held I think 34 gls.

It’s not hard at all to show how our Prius has saved us in fuel alone over $40,000, but people still want those SUV’s as a status symbol. It’s worth it to them.

What was it the 70s lines at the pump and a max. amount?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

, but people still want those SUV’s as a status symbol. It’s worth it to them.

Status symbol?
That's not what I see when I see people who have no reason for having one driving them.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Status symbol?
That's not what I see when I see people who have no reason for having one driving them.

If they have six kids I can see one. If with six kids and can still afford one.
I guess it is to each his own.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I believe in fuel costs will have people driving less, and dumping the SUV’s like hot cakes, cause I’ve seen it several times in my life.
But people will do things considered insane to feed an addiction.
It’s interesting though how people can become accustomed to $75 dollar fill ups.
No too many years ago I had to reset the fuel pump to finish filling my truck, most had a $100 limit and wouldn’t pump more. It held I think 34 gls.

It’s not hard at all to show how our Prius has saved us in fuel alone over $40,000, but people still want those SUV’s as a status symbol. It’s worth it to them.

Agreed on all counts A64. I just tossed in the fuel cost thing to illustrate how prices influence behaviour. But addiction is more complex and harder to impact, specifically because it is a physical addition.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

What was it the 70s lines at the pump and a max. amount?

We lived in a smallish town so for us it wasn’t so much a lack of fuel as much as what it cost. The cost went up, actually thankfully. I assume thankfully because if the high cost didn’t drive conservation then there really would have been big shortages in my opinion.
What I remember and I wasn’t old enough to drive but was close was that you could only buy fuel on odd numbered days if your license plate ended in an odd number and even numbered days if it was even.
Because of that and we were building a beach house and travelled every weekend my Father had saddle bag tanks installed on his truck.
Of course this was the time of 55 MPH speed limits etc.
I know this is a broken record but merely changing over to electric cars ain’t going to solve as much as some may think, it’s merely changing energy sources.
Just for grins look up how much “green house” gas emissions is due to automobiles, and then look up how much is due to electrical generation, electricity is not carbon neutral or all that green actually.

What we need to do and can do is conserve, not change lifestyles so much really, just become more efficient. I’m convinced the average person could if it became a priority cut their energy consumption in half, not overnight of course but over say a 5 yr period.

I thought it funny how some were thinking how good it was that hydrogen was made from wind farms so that it could be burned by generators to charge electric cars.
How inefficient do you think that is? Maybe use the hydrogen directly to run the car?

Some think I’m evil for saying that we should ration a set amount of fuel at a low cost, and any fuel that was bought above the ration amount is just at a much higher cost.
But if you suddenly made fuel cost $10 a gl, it’s going to put the poor under. The millions that work in food service etc just can’t afford $10 a gl fuel. So you make available at a low cost just enough for them to get by, only if they are frugal and efficient about it. Combining trips, car pooling etc.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Some think I’m evil for saying that we should ration a set amount of fuel at a low cost, and any fuel that was bought above the ration amount is just at a much higher cost.

But if you suddenly made fuel cost $10 a gl, it’s going to put the poor under. The millions that work in food service etc just can’t afford $10 a gl fuel. So you make available at a low cost just enough for them to get by, only if they are frugal and efficient about it. Combining trips, car pooling etc.

I've previously agreed that there's technical merit to your idea about fuel rationing, but you must admit it's far more draconian and more of a "big gummint" imposition than a straight carbon tax of a few percent. Would you be willing to pay the above-ration price to fuel toys like RVs, motor yachts, airplanes?

No-one's advising or expecting that US gas should suddenly be north of $10 a gallon. But a 5% carbon surcharge (for example) could be both affordable and influential on behaviour and vehicle choice.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s not hard at all to show how our Prius has saved us in fuel alone over $40,000, but people still want those SUV’s as a status symbol. It’s worth it to them.

$40,000 in savings, good grief how much do you drive??
My last year as on owner operator I averaged 10,000 miles per month in an 18 wheeler that got 6mpg and my annual fuel expense was $78,000

I currently have to drive 68 miles each day for work, five days a week. Raising the price of fuel will only hurt my family and many like us. We live paycheck to paycheck, moving closer to the city would nearly double our living expenses so there is no other option but to drive.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I've previously agreed that there's technical merit to your idea about fuel rationing, but you must admit it's far more draconian and more of a "big gummint" imposition than a straight carbon tax of a few percent. Would you be willing to pay the above-ration price to fuel toys like RVs, motor yachts, airplanes?

No-one's advising or expecting that US gas should suddenly be north of $10 a gallon. But a 5% carbon surcharge (for example) could be both affordable and influential on behaviour and vehicle choice.

Paying $7 a gallon in Australia now.
Much of the world is paying more again.
The UK is around the $10 mark.

[a64pilot]

We have 250,000 on it now, car is ten yrs old and we don’t drive it anymore, it’s our Daughters College car.
But here are the numbers, but check because I’m good at screwing up even simple math.
Prius
250,000 miles div by 50 MPG is 5,000 gls at $3 a gl = $15,000 fuel cost.

I actually average low 60’s MPG, but use 50 because most don’t understand how to drive the Prius for mileage.
Big SUV
250,000 miles div by 12 MPG is 20,833 gls at $3 a gl = $62,500 fuel cost

62,500 - 15,000 = $47,499

Now you can argue the 12 MPG so use 15 and run the numbers, and the big V8 SUV and PU’s don’t get better than that in my experience.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

$40,000 in savings, good grief how much do you drive??
My last year as on owner operator I averaged 10,000 miles per month in an 18 wheeler that got 6mpg and my annual fuel expense was $78,000

I currently have to drive 68 miles each day for work, five days a week. Raising the price of fuel will only hurt my family and many like us. We live paycheck to paycheck, moving closer to the city would nearly double our living expenses so there is no other option but to drive.

That is why I said a way to do it is every adult gets x number of gallons of low cost fuel to do with as they please. Sell it and ride a bike if they want to, but the overwhelming majority I believe will use it to get back and forth to work. Drive a lot? Get an efficient vehicle I mean that’s the point isn’t it, to increase efficiency?

But to make this work you do the same with residential electrical power too.

What to me is stupid is what I’m sure we will soon see, and that’s huge overweight electric SUV’s and trucks, using several times the power an efficient vehicle would.

Transportation in the US is responsible for 29% of the greenhouse gas emissions in the US from one site I found, I have no idea if it’s correct or not, but electrical power generation is responsible for 28%. Now of course that’s not power used to charge electric cars, as of yet that is a tiny amount, but the idea of an electric car is carbon neutral and zero emission etc is false, because electricity generation is not.

Seems to be a reliable source?
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sou...-gas-emissions

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I've previously agreed that there's technical merit to your idea about fuel rationing, but you must admit it's far more draconian and more of a "big gummint" imposition than a straight carbon tax of a few percent. Would you be willing to pay the above-ration price to fuel toys like RVs, motor yachts, airplanes?

No-one's advising or expecting that US gas should suddenly be north of $10 a gallon. But a 5% carbon surcharge (for example) could be both affordable and influential on behaviour and vehicle choice.

As I said my problem with a tax is where does it go?
If it were rationed to a usable number, then a person can control their costs themselves, the guy that drives 58 miles to work each day, if he had an efficient vehicle, that’s a gl or less of fuel a day, and that is with cars available right now, today. A large increase in efficiency is possible, but people don’t want it, it doesn’t sell. But it would if there was a large increase in energy costs

We bought the Prius because the Wife drove just under 50 miles each way to work, so she averaged 100 miles a day, that 2 gl.
The 10 gl tank in the Prius would last all week.
It’s largely how we put close to 250,000 miles on the car in 6 or 7 years. That and traveling boat shopping.