Pump in vented loop needed for direct to sea pee

[thinwater]

What you are building is a holding tank system where the holding tank is the volume of the hose. There are several solvable problems.
* Vented loop to break syphon. Yup, you need it the same as any sink, toilet, or holding tanks that is below the waterline.
* Switch to turn the pimp on. You have no room for a float. There are sensors based on conductivity (two pins and some circuitry) that would work, but I don't know what scaling will do to them.
* P-trap. Urine can stink something fierce. With no flushing water you will need a seal. A joker vale might also work. However, without a tank vent, some of the stink (gases) will push back to the toilet. No much if it is in regular use, since it takes urine a few days to get ripe... but it will get ripe faster in a pipe that is not cleaned.
*Obviously, you need thru-hull and valve. Sinking is bad.



I think it is an interesting approach. But recognize that anchoring in a remote area ("We are typically anchoring and in remote places") means that you are illegal EVERY day unless you are somewhere outside the US. You are not 3 miles out and that is that. You will need a lockable valve if you get a visit (I have been visited twice and they checked that the valve was secured), and it will always be locked when anchored. Additionally, the marine police may write you a ticket even with a valve, arguing that obviously you are not "holding it," and in the absence of a holding tank, must be opening the valve and discharging illegally.



By the time you do the pump, vented loop, and valve, you might as well add a tiny holding tank. If it were me, I would be thinking if there was a way to modify the jug and drop a tiny sump pump with float inside the jug.



The only way this is simple is if the jug is well above the waterline and it is just a drain.

[captstu]

I think the idea evolved from the "Office of the Complicator General."

Composting toiets already separate the pee into a secur jug. Illegal to dump inland, but ok when offshore in non-restricted areas.

Just use it as designed - why complicate your life, reduce the safety of your boat, and risk a fine?

Just because you can, it doesn't mean you should.

/Stu

[StoneCrab]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

Sterile or not, that counts as overboard discharge which is illegal for inland waterways. You will need to be able to lock it off. You can urinate off the bow into the water, and you can urinate in the water.....not illegal. We don't make the rules.

Seems to me you will need a small "holding tank" like a sump box with a small, horizontal bilge pump that can empty into your sink drain line, but.....your head will smell like urine due to the connection. The sink drain line isn't a sanitation hose and is quite permeable to odor.

Valid points here....hmmm wondering if there is a story behind this knowledge...

My thought on reading your request brought up the condensate pumps that many HVAC installers use to collect the water that is pulled off an airconditioning coil. The small pumps come in a plastic housing with external tubing connections. The housing collects the condensate. The pump pushes it to the drain. Very similar to a bilge pump. Maybe you could repurpose one of these.

Here is an example... I'm not suggesting this size but grabbed the link so you can see what I am referring to. They come in many sizes and configurations. Perhaps this will give you an idea for a DIY build using a small bilge pump.

https://www.johnstonesupply.com/prod...ew?pID=B81-120

[sailor_ed]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Science is study based on data collection. The scientist's conclusions include opinion based on data.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

Valid points here....hmmm wondering if there is a story behind this knowledge...

My thought on reading your request brought up the condensate pumps that many HVAC installers use to collect the water that is pulled off an airconditioning coil. The small pumps come in a plastic housing with external tubing connections. The housing collects the condensate. The pump pushes it to the drain. Very similar to a bilge pump. Maybe you could repurpose one of these.

Here is an example... I'm not suggesting this size but grabbed the link so you can see what I am referring to. They come in many sizes and configurations. Perhaps this will give you an idea for a DIY build using a small bilge pump.

https://www.johnstonesupply.com/prod...ew?pID=B81-120

Clever.


But speaking of the office of the complicated, it will really stink and will need a vent. For condensate they are open air, because it is just condensate. In other words, it becomes a mini-holding tank, with all of the same concerns.


Unless the jug is well above the heeled waterline, it's not going to be simple.

[StoneCrab]

Never say never. Problem solving is a process. Sometimes you need to put up with a little smell on the journey to a solution. God knows my holding tank is anything but an ideal solution.... it certainly isn't odor free.

Innovation is fueled through experimentation. Maybe something simple develops out of a few iterations which address this problem.

If the hose stinks, how about using metal tubing.

If the tank is the issue, put the pump in a metal thermos if you can't form your own.

Question what make urine smell. Is it a chemical reaction or biologic? Is there a simple way of preventing the transformation? Granted it sometimes starts out that way, like after asparagus. Inquiring minds want to know....

I never really thought much about it before, but think it is solvable.

In my opinion, moving a small volume of liquid through a 1/4" line isn't really going to require a "vented" loop as long as the tubing is brought above the water line and then down to a drain. These types of pumps normally have check valves built in and the system isn't sealed, in that the source is open air. If the boat is heeled over, you will be on it, so how much backing up would be possible, if it were to happen, between pee breaks?

There are over complicated designs and then there are over complicated analysis. The Office of the Complicator General has many divisions and subcommittees. Usually oversight is provided by the Master Overthinker.

Great stuff!

[Giro]

Our Nature’s Head has a diverted. Solid goes one way and urine goes into large jug. Entire system is supported by a common vent and fan. Unit is secured and locked down to sole inside of head area. An extra jug came with the unit.

[jen1722terry]

Hi,

Just a few days ago, we posted some how-tos on installing a drain from the small liquids tank on your composter to an existing holding tank (assuming you have an existing holding tank onboard).

May be helpful. Your holding tank will already have the correct plumbing. Very easy project to plumb to your composter.

Cheers

[sinnerman]

Pour the urine into an old scotch whiskey bottle. Leave it on the dock box. Someone will walk by take it.

[Sos]

The problem of urine smelling if left for too long can be solved by a flush with fresh water after pumping out the urine.

[NorthCoastJoe]

No vented loop just use a windshield washer pump and tubing from your pee tank to the sink drain just below the sink. Drill a hole in the pipe pipe and use a saddle clamp fitting to connect the pee tube. Same as used for a RO system under a kitchen sink at home. Then a quick squirt of rinse water, done.

[svchinamoon]

“Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink.” -Charles Bukowski

[JoetheCobbler]

The contortions people go through to use these sandboxes onboard is astounding.
And a good source of amusement!

[HeywoodJ]

If you have the boat bucks, the OP's quest seems to be answered by the Whale Grey IC. Has a switch in the line that detects when water is present, turns on a diaphragm pump to empty the line, has a timer to run even after no water is detected to empty the line. Don't know about compatibility with urine, that would take some investigation, but function is exactly what was requested.

[rossdv8]

"which I understand is sterile once it leaves the body"
Still chuckling at that one. You've probably never had to give a Urine Specimen at the doctors, and wait for results back from a path lab.
Staphylococcus, Klebsiella, Streptococcus, Gonnhorrea - and those are just the 'tame' bugs. There are some pretty awful things living in pee after it leaves the (I almost said 'your') body.

In the mean time. There's a product in Australia called NapiSan. It is probably available in other countries by a different name. Women here have used it for ages to put in a Nappy (diaper) bucket and it sort of turns the baby poo into a slurry, and mostly neutralises the smell.

The active ingredient in it is Sodium Percarbonate - so look for it in stores as a powder for cleaning.

Ok, back to the problem at hand.
If you have a Nappy Bucket (they are usually about 2 gallon and have a close fitting lid) you can have an effective sit and pee, stand and pee, or squat and pee solution. A capful of Napi San will generally keep the thing more or less odourless until you have the chance to empty it. Another neat thing is that Sodium Percarbonate also kills a lot of the bugs in poo AND pee. IN fact it is the chemical of choice here for Thetford Porta-Pottis in places where we use them, because the contents of the bottom tank, while they look pretty awful, are very low impact on the olfactories and the discharge is fairly eco friendly (look it up) and often recognised as safe for discharge into toilets.

Of course, if a Nappy Bucket is not to your liking - why not find room for a PortaPotti and use NapiSan in it, and keep it as a pee only solution?
That way you are not stuffing up your composting toilet's biosystem.

I usually sailed with all female crew and I know they appreciated this no mess, no smell solution. That said, I did notice I always seemed to get the job of emptying the thing when we had to take it ashore (if anchored in a no discharge area).