So Your Wife/GF Doesn't Want to Sail, Here is Why and Here is What You can do About i

[redhead]

Originally Posted by rognvald

By the responses, it is obvious we are living in the Y2K with the usual "male bashing" mantra so popular today. I recently read an article about a current movement in our US educational system to encourage/promote boys beginning in grade 1 to be less masculine and assertive aiming at a more gender-neutral human. So, are we to dismiss the last 6 million years of hominid evolution and the effects of testosterone/estrogen that has shaped the differences between male and females and proceed along the latest hip-hop philosophy of role-playing? Or, do we respect these differences and factor them into our division of labor aboard a boat? I have sailed with the same female for the last 30 years. I have my roles; she has hers. It works. Are there conflicts afloat? Yes. And, there are also conflicts on land. But they are usually typical male/female conflicts that have nothing to do with boating and everything to do with the fact that males and females see the world through different eyes. Simple. And, everything I can do with the exception of Celestial Navigation and boat repairs, she is fully capable of handling and has done so many times throughout our journeys. So, my opinion is if you're having a problem with the male/female on your boat . . . you picked the wrong partner. It has nothing to do with boating. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

Where is male bashing? We've been sailing together happily for 25 years. I
pointed out that the learning curve was steep for both of us. Once we discovered OUR way to learn stuff there was no problem. Perhaps you were referring to someone else's post....

[Mike OReilly]

rognvald, I don’t see a lot of “male bashing” as you quote (who are you quoting anyway?). I do see a lot of thoughtful comments in response to the OP, which is now nearly two years old.

Your comments about "dismiss the last 6 million years of hominid evolution” are interesting. It’s very true we’re the consequence of millions of years of evolution. Males and females ARE different, and there is a tendency to our current world to pretend this is not so.

That said, modern civilization is a constant effort to push against some of our evolutionary traits. Civilization, as we know it, would be impossible if we simply lived as our genes dictate. Tribalism, violence, us/them dynamics, are all a result of our 6 million yers of evolution. We work hard to tame and manage these genetic facts.

Just like we generally don’t accept murder, physical violence or theft as acceptable practices, neither do we have to be constrained by our evolutionary history in regard to how we treat the sexes, or indeed all people.

[rognvald]

"That said, modern civilization is a constant effort to push against some of our evolutionary traits. Civilization, as we know it, would be impossible if we simply lived as our genes dictate. " Mike O'Reilly


Hi, Mike,
There are also genes for compassion, kindness, and civility that we see present in Chimps, Bonobos, and Gorillas, today, that were present in early Man as he descended from the trees into the African Savannah to make a living. They, like the negative traits of Man, have always been with us. There can be no change to Man unless his inherent Biology changes. This, of course, will take hundreds of thousands and, more likely, millions of years based on evolutionary evidence and is conditional on whether we survive as a species or become extinct. Geez . . . and we thought boating was so simple. Good luck and safe sailing--Rognvald

[tp12]

Hmmm ... a sense of perspective is being lost here. If you're asking your partner, male or female, to be responsible for your learning and to be a teacher as well as a doer then you are hardly taking responsibility for your own learning. Is that equality? No, it isn't. It's asking to sit back and be spoonfed and placing all the responsibility onto the other partner while blaming them if it doesn't suit you.

In a truly equal partnership both partners would take responsibility for their own learning and create the right environment for themselves to learn in and help and be responsive to the requests/needs of their partner.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rognvald

There are also genes for compassion, kindness, and civility that we see present in Chimps, Bonobos, and Gorillas, today, that were present in early Man as he descended from the trees into the African Savannah to make a living. They, like the negative traits of Man, have always been with us. There can be no change to Man unless his inherent Biology changes. This, of course, will take hundreds of thousands and, more likely, millions of years based on evolutionary evidence and is conditional on whether we survive as a species or become extinct. Geez . . . and we thought boating was so simple. Good luck and safe sailing--Rognvald

Agreed … all except for the absolute statement about there being “no” change without biological evolution. There are plenty of things we’ve changed that seem to be in direct contrast or or conflict with our biology. Large communities — cities — are one big example. Evolutionary biology tells us we’re genetically geared to communities of not much more than a couple 100 at the most, just like our immediate Ape cousins. We’ve obviously broken through this genetic limitation. So to with sex roles.

Genetics and evolution are huge determinants of who we are. But this is clearly not the only factor. And none of us are predefined in how we must behave as individuals, or as community. Culture evolves far faster now than genetic evolution. This is the gift, or curse, of this big brain of ours.

[danielamartindm]

You do realize that some wives/GFs simply don't like sailing, and it has nothing to do with sexism or any other victim status, right?

[Tellie]

"So Your Wife/GF Doesn't Want to Sail" ..... Not together! 6 million years of male evolution should have taught you that. I'd suggest you keep them apart and your days may be lot happier.

[redhead]

Originally Posted by tp12

Hmmm ... a sense of perspective is being lost here. If you're asking your partner, male or female, to be responsible for your learning and to be a teacher as well as a doer then you are hardly taking responsibility for your own learning. Is that equality? No, it isn't. It's asking to sit back and be spoonfed and placing all the responsibility onto the other partner while blaming them if it doesn't suit you.

In a truly equal partnership both partners would take responsibility for their own learning and create the right environment for themselves to learn in and help and be responsive to the requests/needs of their partner.

This is the ideal of course, but the reality is that we live on our boat, we are dependent upon each other, he has 50 years of experience since he was 14, I have 25 years. Of course, I don't know everything he does. But since we are here on our boat and since I simple don't have the wealth of experience he does, I am taking the responsibility of learning as much as I can from the person whose experience I know and trust.

Not sitting back, not spoonfed (very condescending, by the way) just reality - two people on a boat, loving the boat and each other. I fear you are writing from a land base where the rules and opportunities are a bit different (see I can be condescending too.)

[tp12]

Originally Posted by redhead

This is the ideal of course, but the reality is that we live on our boat, we are dependent upon each other, he has 50 years of experience since he was 14, I have 25 years. Of course, I don't know everything he does. But since we are here on our boat and since I simple don't have the wealth of experience he does, I am taking the responsibility of learning as much as I can from the person whose experience I know and trust.

Not sitting back, not spoonfed (very condescending, by the way) just reality - two people on a boat, loving the boat and each other. I fear you are writing from a land base where the rules and opportunities are a bit different (see I can be condescending too.)

I think you've made at least two incorrect assumptions. You can still take control of your learning and not require being spoonfed, as some earlier posts indicate. And it would appear that you're not sitting back and being spoonfed, so it didn't apply to you in the first place. It's not condescending; you've taken it that way, however, but that's because of how you've perceived my comment.

My point is about equality. You've assumed that it's something worth striving for when I don't believe that it's necessary. In your case, you've got a perfectly good arrangement that you and your partner are happy with. It doesn't have to be equal, you just both have to be happy with it. And it seems you are. To me, that's the perfect arrangement; two adults have had a discussion and come up with something that works for them. Great! But let's not confuse that with equality and why should we? It's counterproductive.

A further example was provided earlier in this thread by the lady who seemingly has involved herself in all aspects of the boat but won't go near the head. That's not equal. Does it matter? No. As long as both partners are happy with the arrangement and it works for them.

[Sojourner]

Two things I read that caught my eye: SEPARATE LESSONS and ALL-GIRL CREW. Or at least female skipper. I would highly recommend that. I grew up sailing on and off and taught myself, but my partners never sailed before, so they wanted some training. Best thing I found for them is an all-woman sailing team (in Pisa, italy, if anyone is around there, Second Star Sailing, AMAZING women and sailors). They trained with them for their Competent Crew certificates.

The thing is, a) it is VERY hard to be a good teacher to your partner, I find. We get embarrassed or stressed or impatient with our spouses sometimes. So separate training is important....many scuba instructors refuse to partner up couples for training for this reason (they split them up with others in the class), and i think it's vital. and b) mansplaining is a real thing. some people are sensitive to it, so if that's an issue, then a female crew will break walls down real fast. They're women, they've done it, they're pro sailors who can kick ass. It builds up a lot of confidence very quickly, at least it did in our case.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Tellie

"So Your Wife/GF Doesn't Want to Sail" ..... Not together! 6 million years of male evolution should have taught you that. I'd suggest you keep them apart and your days may be lot happier.

Saw a funny sign in a resturant recently, it suggested inviting your wife & GF to dinner, if they both showed up then resturant would pay for dinner!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Two things I read that caught my eye: SEPARATE LESSONS and ALL-GIRL CREW. Or at least female skipper. I would highly recommend that. I grew up sailing on and off and taught myself, but my partners never sailed before, so they wanted some training. Best thing I found for them is an all-woman sailing team (in Pisa, italy, if anyone is around there, Second Star Sailing, AMAZING women and sailors). They trained with them for their Competent Crew certificates.

The thing is, a) it is VERY hard to be a good teacher to your partner, I find. We get embarrassed or stressed or impatient with our spouses sometimes. So separate training is important....many scuba instructors refuse to partner up couples for training for this reason (they split them up with others in the class), and i think it's vital. and b) mansplaining is a real thing. some people are sensitive to it, so if that's an issue, then a female crew will break walls down real fast. They're women, they've done it, they're pro sailors who can kick ass. It builds up a lot of confidence very quickly, at least it did in our case.

A sailing school where I used to teach conducted all female classes and we also routinely separated couples. It was a busy school which often ran multiple classes on the weekends, so we could split couples into completely separate classes...much to their surprise!

Funny related story: I was teaching a basic sailing class once, which included a couple, the wife was doing quite well on the helm...so I was a bit surprised that on one of her turns at the helm the boat kept luffing...I turned to watch her helming more closely and noticed that hubby, who was sitting besid her, kept nudging the tiller...the wrong way! [emoji849]

I banished him from sitting next to her for the rest of the class. [emoji16]

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Agreed … all except for the absolute statement about there being “no” change without biological evolution. There are plenty of things we’ve changed that seem to be in direct contrast or or conflict with our biology. Large communities — cities — are one big example. Evolutionary biology tells us we’re genetically geared to communities of not much more than a couple 100 at the most, just like our immediate Ape cousins. We’ve obviously broken through this genetic limitation. So to with sex roles.

Genetics and evolution are huge determinants of who we are. But this is clearly not the only factor. And none of us are predefined in how we must behave as individuals, or as community. Culture evolves far faster now than genetic evolution. This is the gift, or curse, of this big brain of ours.

Hi, Mike,
Your example of humans living in small tribes/groups versus large cities has nothing to do with an evolutionary change but rather the practicalities of profound and sudden increases in population growth requiring diversification of the workforce and the establishment of large communities/cities. Even today, aboriginal groups are generalists, not specialists(as we are) where all the males are expected to participate in the hunt while the females remain at camp tending to the needs of the domicile. However, your last statement that culture evolves faster than genetics is certainly true and for those who fail to adapt to changing conditions that promote a healthy, productive culture, they are doomed to a failed existence and, worse, without the aid/support of more successful cultures. Many of these mumbo-jumbo, psycho-pop philosophies that pervade our culture today(male neutrality/gender reversals/warrior princesses) and attempt to morph basic human biology/evolution/male-female norms are the passing fancies of largely uneducated/misinformed people who need to tell others how to live within the parameters of whatever is deemed culturally/sociologically appropriate for their times. One only need to read the History of the last 1000 years as evidence. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald P.S. I'd certainly like to hear some of your adventures on the magical island of Newfoundland.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by danielamartindm

You do realize that some wives/GFs simply don't like sailing, and it has nothing to do with sexism or any other victim status, right?

Very true

[Orson]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Very true

Sometimes it pays to state the obvious: only choose a woman who ALSO loves the water and swimming in it!

To imagine that, later in life, she will come around to this is unlikely - much less to go the further mile and wish to become a boater with you.