Warning for U.S. Citizens

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So expats should only be taxes for the services they use while overseas?

If they return home for retirement should they be denied old age benefits?

You will never get a perfect pay as you go tax system but at least there is a moderate attempt at it. It's not the taxation but the reporting process that is an issue. But in the context of this discussion, not attempting to report at all and you can expect issues eventually. Nothing surprising about it.

As far as retirement...that's pretty much how social security works. If you have an overseas job for the bulk of your working life, you may not qualify at all or may only qualify for a small amount.
- You need 10yrs work that pays into SS or you don't qualify for any SS (it's actually 40 quarters and they define a quarter by dollars but that's the jist of it)
- If you do qualify, the size of the check is based on your 35 highest earning years. If you don't have 35 yrs with income, they average in a zero for the extra years. So if you only have 15yrs working in the states, they average in 20yrs of $0, when calculating what you get.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"Section 9 - Freedom of movement

"Finnish citizens and foreigners legally resident in Finland have the right to freely move within the country and to choose their place of residence.

"Everyone has the right to leave the country. Limitations on this right may be provided by an Act, if they are necessary for the purpose of safeguarding legal proceedings or for the enforcement of penalties or for the fulfilment of the duty of national defence."

That sure sounds similar to what the US is doing. You can quibble over the legal semantics but not filing and paying your taxes is typically considered breaking the law. Of course, criminal proceedings are not the typical first step but they also aren't enforcing this 2 days after the due date for filing either. By the time, they cancel your passport, per the article, you've had years to sort it out.

Plus there is no comparable clause in the US Constitution, while it may or may not be a nice idea, it's not relevant in the US.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Agreed. I'm not sure where the previous poster encountered immigration officers who weren't friendly. I find such people to be friendly all over the world with hardly any exceptions.

That would have been me.

To be more clear, I'm not saying that airport customs and immigrationis unfriendly or rude, just very serious and all business. No cheer, smiles or how ya doing at all. This has been the case at almost all the airports I recall in Europe, Africa, Asia and Latin America. The exceptions, other than Dublin, were the tropical tourist destinations like Bahamas and Caribbean Islands.

I don't think it's my attitude because I usually show up grinning like a kid in a candy store.

Over the years, but for the exceptions noted, I can recall only a few welcome, enjoy your visit or other pleasantries in the process.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Adelie

So expats should only be taxes for the services they use while overseas?

If they return home for retirement should they be denied old age benefits?

Old age benefits are paid for by the social security trust fund, not general tax fund, and besides that I've paid bushels of taxes already during my life time.

What is interesting is that even if I burn my U.S. passport, I still get social security (provided I fullfill a few conditions).

How do I know that? Oops. Busted.


And anyway, how many long term expats come back to the U.S. for retirement? The U.S. is not known for being a great retirement destination.

[ShinyHappy]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What's that old saying...ignorance is no excuse for the law.

This isn't rocket science. If you move overseas and make no effort to learn the rules, that's on you. Likewise, updating your address, so they can get in contact, is on you.

I don't see this as a big threat if you make even a modest effort at staying legitimate.

My thoughts exactly. We're adults. We're supposed to understand our rights and responsibilities. If you enjoy the association without paying the yearly fee to do so, that's on you.

If an expat likes where they are, change citizenship and it's all good.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Again, then what do we do? Allow those folks to remain noncompliant indefinitely while holding everyone living into the U.S. strictly to the rules? And denigrate anyone who points out that this is both poor policy and unfair? Or do we figure out the one way that we can get their attention and implement that? If passports isn't the best way, what is your suggestion of a method that holds every American equally accountable under the law?

I Think it is important to look at you are are talking about here.

These 360,000 US expats aren't "scofflaws", and tax evaders, they are people.

People who chose to move to another country, maybe married a local girl, and got a job of any kind to receive income, and pay taxes in the new country.

They did this for decades LEGALLY, and now are "criminals, and scofflaws" for not filing dozens of new tax forms to the US government that were added since 2010.

Since they OWE, and PAY local taxes they actually owe little or nothing to the IRS, but of course the IRS will assume you owe it ALL, until you file the proper forms showing that money is already taxed.

Since the tax debt of these people is little or nothing, in spite of the "$51,000" notice once the proper deductions are filed, this isn't about "finding scofflaws", this is about control.

The power of the US government to hunt any US citizen, or anyone else associated with a US citizen to the ends of the earth.

And someone posted above "The US government can't seize a foreign bank account", keep telling yourself that.

Many banks operate in more than one country, even in the USA, and ANY country with banking treaties with the US will DEFINATELY hand over your cash, or freeze accounts when the US government requests them to.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

True indeed , out of 280 pieces of Mail received in 6 months , only three needed to be forwarded to me. All related to my various gun licences !! ( which is still partly paper based )


What is awkward is non resident accounts in the EU.

What? You got a Loisense for a gun? Outside the USA?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Old age benefits are paid for by the social security trust fund, not general tax fund, and besides that I've paid bushels of taxes already during my life time.

If I understand the situation has not the SS fund been lumped in with the general federal funds in an attempt to make an appearance of reducing the deficit.

Regardless same here. I'm paying in each year and only get back a few boat bucks more than I pay in.

So it really annoys me when the politicians want to reduce the entitlements programs. Yes I know the definition in this context is something to which one has a right IE is entitled to. However the political ads always use in the sense of a special privilege or treatment.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

They did this for decades LEGALLY, and now are "criminals, and scofflaws" for not filing dozens of new tax forms to the US government that were added since 2010.

Actually, they failed to file for years and flew under the radar for years because it was difficult to enforce.

If they filed all the forms pre-2010 and the IRS was good with it, they aren't coming after you for pre-2010 taxes.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

What? You got a Loisense for a gun? Outside the USA?

3 of them including a pistol and a rifle with a silencer

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

3 of them including a pistol and a rifle with a silencer

I’m ready for the zombies

[Group9]

Before I learned that they are inaccurate about 90 per cent of the time (from my CPA) getting one of those IRS computer generated letter saying they had decided you owed thousands of dollars in unpaid taxes, used to be quite the breath taking event.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by skipmac

If I understand the situation has not the SS fund been lumped in with the general federal funds in an attempt to make an appearance of reducing the deficit.

Regardless same here. I'm paying in each year and only get back a few boat bucks more than I pay in.

So it really annoys me when the politicians want to reduce the entitlements programs. Yes I know the definition in this context is something to which one has a right IE is entitled to. However the political ads always use in the sense of a special privilege or treatment.

If you want to really get mad, go onto the Social, Security website, take your contribution amounts, and plug them into say, a mutual fund indexed to the S&P 500, then plug the gain into an annuity calculator and see how much retirement money you would have every month over your SS payment.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Group9

If you want to really get mad, go onto the Social, Security website, take your contribution amounts, and plug them into say, a mutual fund indexed to the S&P 500, then plug the gain into an annuity calculator and see how much retirement money you would have every month over your SS payment.

Yes but it’s a form of mutualised fund. Those that may make low payments will get back proportionately more and those paying more will get back proportionally less. Otherwise the poorer sections of society wouldn’t get enough and the wealthy would get wealthier.

[JBP]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes but it’s a form of mutualised fund. Those that may make low payments will get back proportionately more and those paying more will get back proportionally less. Otherwise the poorer sections of society wouldn’t get enough and the wealthy would get wealthier.

The wealthy don't pay much more than everyone else. Once you make over $142,000, you no longer have to pay into social security.