What's the deal with Boat Brokers?

[Scaramanga F25]

LeeV

For Lagoons or used cats at CatCo talk to Caroline LaV.....
She was at the show. And will be at the Ft Lauderdale and Miami shows.
She also checks out the used boats in Tortola regularly.

She is tops in numbers of Catamaran sold. She was brought up on boats and
I found her to be very knowledgeable.

[boatpoker]

There are a couple of hundred brokers in Ontario and I've dealt with almost all of them at one time or another. There are a handful that strongly recommend a survey prior to listing because they want to know what they are selling. Those same few want a "real" survey. Those same few show up at every survey to see if I need anything. Those same few are the ones that never ask any questions about how the survey is going because they have some ethics and know I won't tell them any any. Those same few never try to diminish issues or influence the survey.

They are like surveyors, among the thousands out there it's your job to find the few good ones. When you find a good one, give him a plug on this forum.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by shadow

I've purchased many boats in my life and I literally have an 80% ratio of the brokers being just useless.. I know more about the boat then they do. Getting information out of them seems like a root canal. They constantly give incomplete information and I have to keep begging them to give me more..

Just like 99% of realtors. EXACTLY the same. Bunch of clowns, yet making HUGE money on you. They're making money by using people's fear, dumbness and unwillingness to learn.

I case of realtors:
They're not required by law, they take zero (I repeat - ZERO) responsibility.
Lawers are the ones who check everything and are responsible for legal side of purchase.
And yet - realty agencies have made people to believe that they're absolutely required!
It's simply a mafia, one more tax on top of all others you have to pay.

Brokers? I bet they're exactly the same. There could be exceptions. But exceptions ALWAYS prove the rule!

[Scaramanga F25]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

They are like surveyors, among the thousands out there it's your job to find the few good ones. When you find a good one, give him a plug on this forum.

As you know them could you name them for us.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

LeeV

For Lagoons or used cats at CatCo talk to Caroline LaV.....
...............................
She is tops in numbers of Catamaran sold. She was brought up on boats and
I found her to be very knowledgeable.

Nice recommendation, and I've heard it before. Unfortunately neither of us can get past that that shiny post (mast support) in the middle of the saloon. We're looking at FPs and Leopards.

WORDSMITHEREEN: we also called them Weekend Warriors if you date back as far as me! ;-)

v/r,

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

As you know them could you name them for us.

Each of the following has been very helpful in my search for boats and/or have an excellent reputation:

"Corbo" Corblishi at RCR Yachts serving L. Erie and L. Ontario.


Bill Algaier, Harborview Yacht Sales, Michigan.


Geoffrey Marsh, The Yacht Brokerage, Brisbane Australia. Tell him the guys in NY sent you.


Pat Sturgeon, Pat Sturgeon Yachts, Ontario Canada/ Lake Ontario

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

As you know them could you name them for us.

The finest boat broker I've ever dealt with (in case we're making a list) is at Yacht Sales West:
Michael Carkeek
Certified Yacht Broker

VANCOUVER
1826 Mast Tower Road
Granville Island
Vancouver, BC V6H 4B6
(604) 488-1202

We bought our trimaran from him and had it shipped here to the Chesapeake. There were some nightmarish details (including police...) I won't share, but suffice it to say that even after the sale was done, Michael stayed aboard with us to see the entire process through to delivery. I've seen him once since then at the Annapolis show last year, but we stay in touch. I'd not think twice about recommending him; give him my name should you ever reach out to him.

v/r,

[TJ D]

Allow me to share a small anecdote from the broker's perspective.

I owned a brokerage for a time, listing everything from normal, older cruising boats up to motoryachts in the 70' range. Mostly, pretty decent quality boats, some really nice ones too.

As a favor to someone, due to their personal circumstance, I listed a nearly derelect Islander on Yachtworld for a mere $5,000, as is, where is. I wasn't going to make a dime on this sale.

Once I listed that boat, my monthly traffic on yachtworld DOUBLED. At that time, I had 50 listings, and it still doubled. I got multiple emails per day, asking every question under the sun. 'Say, could you go down to the boat and get me the serial numbers of these 9 parts?' 'When was the rigging replaced?', 'Can you go unbag the sails and give me a good assessment of their condition'?' This went on and on. It was amazing. Probably, lots of those people thought that I was a slimeball, lazy broker because I wouldn't take the better part of my day to go do their bidding for this hunk of crap.

People who bought boats in the 6 figure range typically made an offer, did their inspection, followed by survey and sea trial, as is the norm. All very businesslike. Sure, there were questions to be answered, and I did that to the best of my ability.

If I had allowed it, that $5,000 boat would have completely overwhelmed my office.

Bottom line- in general, the work/reward ratio for selling cheap boats is quite poor. Folks who are looking for red-carpet service when buying an old, lower end of the market boat would do well to remember that. You might be the 23rd person that the broker has had a huge list of questions from, and still no sale. It makes a small sale very costly indeed in terms of time for the broker.

Just the other side of the coin, friends. I suspect that if any of you who make a habit of slagging brokers walked a mile in their shoes, your view would be different.

i've outlined an extreme case, but it is relevant.

TJ

[skipmac]

Once again I'm sucked into an "all brokers are lazy, worthless, liars, crooked, etc." thread.

First, there are plenty of brokers that fit that description and worse but to make a blanket indictment against all brokers is no more valid than saying all sailboaters are WAFIs, all power boat drivers are rude idiots and any other generality one cares to bring up. Bottom line, there's good brokers and bad, just like any other collection of people will have good and bad. Maybe a few more lazy bums than your average, random crowd but maybe not.

Yes I've had dealings with idiot brokers. My last boat purchase I found a listing that fit my criteria, called the broker but it was sold. No problem he said I'll find a comparable boat for you, what are you looking for? I gave the following, non-negotiable specs: fiberglass, center cockpit, sloop or cutter, modified fin keel. So a week later he calls me with an aft cockpit, full keel, ketch. At least it was fiberglass.

Originally Posted by Divevac

Time is money - IMHO that deplorable attitude is endemic to the majority (60-70%) of brokers I have inquired with.

Last month one broker showed great initiative offering to Skype-preview a boat I called about-not his listing. After 25 minutes showing me the boat from afar, he insisted I deal directly with him and his brokerage. When I openly questioned his motives, he got very pissy and terminated the call. As soon as he realized there was no nothing in it for him, he was gone, The listing broker (brokerage owner and his boss) may yet get the sale.

Deplorable attitude? What do you do to earn a living? Do you have time to spend hours every day doing something that earns nothing for you or your employer? Yes time is money. This is how a broker earns a living, pays the rent, buys groceries. Broker have to eat just like you. So do you expect a broker to spend his or her time educating you on the boat market for free?

Originally Posted by Dave22q

In general a broker knows what a seller tells him. Asking him to calculate current draw is absurd. At best he will ask the owner at worst he will dismiss you as a lookey loo.

Exactly correct. But also, the majority of the boats a typical broker sells were listed by another broker so it that case, the broker you're talking to only knows what the seller told the listing broker that the listing broker passed along. Then add the fact that in a major market like Annapolis or South Florida there are thousands of boats for sale. It is completely impossible for any one human being to know all about every boat listed. Anyone that claims to have all the answers is BSing you, big time. I would much rather have someone tell me they don't know but will find out.

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

Of the 10% commission, the salesman that nails it down shares this commission with the listing broker, then the house and then gets as little as 2.5%, minus expenses, of the final sale once the money has changed hands.

So, on a $50K boat where the surveyor is more or less competent,or a friend of ?, (I have dealt with a few,) knocks the final price to $ 44K the salesman you dealt with who is not the listing broker winds up with with 1,000$ after his/her expenses.

Also correct. A broker isn't going to get rich selling $50k boats unless he/she sells 2-3 a week.

[TJ D]

Thanks for the post, Skipmac. When I see things posted along the lines that '99% of brokers are worthless crooks', it really bothers me. We should have learned not to stereotype anybody by now as a society, and I also find this kind of sentiment quite ignorant.

I'm not in the recreational boat business now, but I've found that there are lots of pros out there. Lots of jackasses too, but for the most part, these are just normal folks trying to make a living.

i can tell you one thing for certain. It's much easier to sell a $500,000 boat than it is a $5,000 boat.

[picklesandjesse]

OK. Here's 3 good brokers.

Lon Bubeck, Flying Cloud Yachts Long Beach CA. A long time sailor who loves his job.

Jim Stuart at Manly Brisbane. Simply without equal. #1 all time best broker and I've bought 27 boats. But will only list quality boats.

Graham Schutt at Bosuns Locker, Southport Yacht Club Qld. Doing it for the fun mostly and has a great attitude.

[Fore and Aft]

Darren from Fraser Marine in Hervey Bay is a great broker. He wants to sell boats so he really tries to do his best. Even the most unlikely buyer will get shown a boat that he wants to look at.
I do a fair few surveys for him and he is all about protecting his reputation so he wants all the faults found. That way when the sale is done there is no after sales drama.
I would say on an hourly rate I would get paid better than him on the small boats. There really is not a lot of money to be made in the smaller boats.

Cheers

[Sailorbob8599]

TJD, ... Skipmac, you've obviously BTDT and I for one appreciate the fact it takes as much work, and maybe more, to sell a low priced vessel as it does the high end stuff.
I recently put my boat on the market; it is not high priced, however, it is a good boat that I built by hiring marine contractors. Unfortunately, it is classified as a 'home built' which causes potential buyers to shy away. I prefer to call it "custom built" even I did do the interior teak and yellow cedar joinery myself.
The boat is of traditional design by:Tom Gilmer, with lots of teak, including hatches, cap-rails, professionally installed (no fasteners) Teak Deck. It is a solid little f/g coastal cruiser and best comparable to the DANA 24, but priced far below. If anything, she might be described as 'over built' when it comes to materials. Nothing was too good for her.
Unfortunately, my health failed shortly after it was launched, August 2015 and I am no longer able to sail her alone or with my wife. My kids are not interested, but have asked me to take up a different hobby as they do not have the tiome to go sailing with me. The vessel and machinery has accumulated less than 20 hours total since launch date when the insurance surveyor valued it at $140k replacement cost.
Everything was basically new at launch date, including: spars, rigging, cruising sails and engine etc. It is ... in the brokers words ... worth far more than the asking price of $39,900 ... the problem is, not many people are looking for small coastal cruising boats and yet, there are still folk who want to sail but cannot afford a brand new boat yet we get the odd offer of half asking price without ever coming to look see this little gem. These low-ball offers are not even worth the effort of a response (but we do reply, if only to thank them for their inquiry) ... so I fully understand where you folk are coming from and your frustrations when dealing with 'tire kickers and buyers' ... I also understand people want to obtain the best bang for their buck but, come on people, recognize value when it is presented, but don't try to steal my property, better known as my pride and joy. I'm flexible, but would rather break her down for parts value rather than give her away to some buyer who may not even appreciate her for the jewel she is.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

TJD, ... Skipmac, you've obviously BTDT and I for one appreciate the fact it takes as much work, and maybe more, to sell a low priced vessel as it does the high end stuff.
I recently put my boat on the market; it is not high priced, however, it is a good boat that I built by hiring marine contractors. Unfortunately, it is classified as a 'home built' which causes potential buyers to shy away. I prefer to call it "custom built" even I did do the interior teak and yellow cedar joinery myself.
The boat is of traditional design by:Tom Gilmer, with lots of teak, including hatches, cap-rails, professionally installed (no fasteners) Teak Deck. It is a solid little f/g coastal cruiser and best comparable to the DANA 24, but priced far below. If anything, she might be described as 'over built' when it comes to materials. Nothing was too good for her.
Unfortunately, my health failed shortly after it was launched, August 2015 and I am no longer able to sail her alone or with my wife. My kids are not interested, but have asked me to take up a different hobby as they do not have the tiome to go sailing with me. The vessel and machinery has accumulated less than 20 hours total since launch date when the insurance surveyor valued it at $140k replacement cost.
Everything was basically new at launch date, including: spars, rigging, cruising sails and engine etc. It is ... in the brokers words ... worth far more than the asking price of $39,900 ... the problem is, not many people are looking for small coastal cruising boats and yet, there are still folk who want to sail but cannot afford a brand new boat yet we get the odd offer of half asking price without ever coming to look see this little gem. These low-ball offers are not even worth the effort of a response (but we do reply, if only to thank them for their inquiry) ... so I fully understand where you folk are coming from and your frustrations when dealing with 'tire kickers and buyers' ... I also understand people want to obtain the best bang for their buck but, come on people, recognize value when it is presented, but don't try to steal my property, better known as my pride and joy. I'm flexible, but would rather break her down for parts value rather than give her away to some buyer who may not even appreciate her for the jewel she is.

Sounds like a really beautiful, solid boat, but yes, unfortunately you've run into a sort of gap in the market. Buyers for a small but very high quality, solid cruisers are very limited, especially one without the benefit of an illustrious name.

There are buyers out there so if you have the time and patience maybe wait it out. Good luck.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

TJD, ... Skipmac, you've obviously BTDT and I for one appreciate the fact it takes as much work, and maybe more, to sell a low priced vessel as it does the high end stuff.
I recently put my boat on the market; it is not high priced, however, it is a good boat that I built by hiring marine contractors. Unfortunately, it is classified as a 'home built' which causes potential buyers to shy away. I prefer to call it "custom built" even I did do the interior teak and yellow cedar joinery myself.
The boat is of traditional design by:Tom Gilmer, with lots of teak, including hatches, cap-rails, professionally installed (no fasteners) Teak Deck. It is a solid little f/g coastal cruiser and best comparable to the DANA 24, but priced far below. If anything, she might be described as 'over built' when it comes to materials. Nothing was too good for her.
Unfortunately, my health failed shortly after it was launched, August 2015 and I am no longer able to sail her alone or with my wife. My kids are not interested, but have asked me to take up a different hobby as they do not have the tiome to go sailing with me. The vessel and machinery has accumulated less than 20 hours total since launch date when the insurance surveyor valued it at $140k replacement cost.
Everything was basically new at launch date, including: spars, rigging, cruising sails and engine etc. It is ... in the brokers words ... worth far more than the asking price of $39,900 ... the problem is, not many people are looking for small coastal cruising boats and yet, there are still folk who want to sail but cannot afford a brand new boat yet we get the odd offer of half asking price without ever coming to look see this little gem. These low-ball offers are not even worth the effort of a response (but we do reply, if only to thank them for their inquiry) ... so I fully understand where you folk are coming from and your frustrations when dealing with 'tire kickers and buyers' ... I also understand people want to obtain the best bang for their buck but, come on people, recognize value when it is presented, but don't try to steal my property, better known as my pride and joy. I'm flexible, but would rather break her down for parts value rather than give her away to some buyer who may not even appreciate her for the jewel she is.

Bob, sorry your plans didn't come to fruition as you'd hoped.

I also own a one off boat, which was built to an exceptional standard, as it sounds like yours was. It sat on the market for a long time, and I bought her for a small fraction of replacement cost.

Unfortunately, custom (if you're still using a broker-ask him to ditch the 'home built' moniker-custom sounds better) boats basically always sell at a big discount-even to their inferior production peers. It's not really right or fair, but it's just the nature of the market.

Hopefully you come across the one person who does recognize your boat for what she is and offers up a fair price. Hang in there. In the meantime, keep her clean and tidy, keep the wood up, and make sure she's ready for sea trial. It's all you can do.

I wish you luck.

TJ